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-   -   Shooting low and left. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1484731)

BIGBEAR92314 05-02-2013 14:16

Shooting low and left.
 
I am shooting low and left. After doing some research it looks like I either need to adjust my grip and or work on trigger jerk.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...psb6dc2907.jpg

TSiWRX 05-02-2013 15:15

^ What distance is that?

F350 05-02-2013 15:22

This might help

BIGBEAR92314 05-02-2013 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSiWRX (Post 20240905)
^ What distance is that?

18 yards

lethal tupperwa 05-02-2013 15:43

move in to 7 yds.

slow down

hold the sight picture in the middle of the target

look at the sights not the target

pull the trigger without moving the sights.

Arc Angel 05-02-2013 17:16

Read what I wrote HERE. Good luck!

TSiWRX 05-02-2013 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIGBEAR92314 (Post 20240939)
18 yards

If you can pull it in closer, as lethal tupperwa recommended, I'd do that, first.

Let's first see a better group - you definitely have a left/low-left trend, but a less scattered group will help determining exactly where you're going wrong, with a bit better accuracy (no pun intended). :)

Pull it back to 7, or even 5 yards, and give it another go.

Jameson4all 05-02-2013 17:59

You may be right hand left eye dominant. Try shooting with your left eye open instead of right, before you change anything else.

BIGBEAR92314 05-02-2013 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jameson4all (Post 20241303)
You may be right hand left eye dominant. Try shooting with your left eye open instead of right, before you change anything else.

I'm right eye dominant.Right handed.

deerslayer01 05-02-2013 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jameson4all (Post 20241303)
You may be right hand left eye dominant. Try shooting with your left eye open instead of right, before you change anything else.

Please elaborate on this because I have always been left eye dominant but right hand shooter. What were you going to suggest to help with that. I have had some problems at times with shooting low and left and just attributed it to bad trigger slap.

brianfede 05-02-2013 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arc Angel (Post 20241190)
Read what I wrote HERE. Good luck!



Assuming that his grip is what it should be, and trigger technique is, at least, adequate then: If a right-handed shooter with a bad, ‘left and low’ problem were to straighten out his support (left-side) arm, slightly bend his gun hand elbow, and slightly cant his gun hand wrist in a downward direction, do you know what’s going to happen WHEN that pistol shooter pushes his gun hand into his grasping support hand (and arm)?

THE SHOOTER WILL, QUITE NATURALLY, FIND IT TO BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO DROP HIS SHOTS INTO EITHER THE LEFT SIDE, OR THE LOWER LEFT QUADRANT OF HIS TARGET!


Above is a quote from Arc Angel and I think this is excellent advice.

TSiWRX 05-02-2013 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by deerslayer01 (Post 20241485)
Please elaborate on this because I have always been left eye dominant but right hand shooter. What were you going to suggest to help with that. I have had some problems at times with shooting low and left and just attributed it to bad trigger slap.

There's a bunch of different ways to go about it - and a lot of how well the shooter does with any one particular method depends on just how cross-dominant they are: different people have different levels of cross-dominance, and their ability to be ambidextrous also varies.

Some recommend that the shooter switch hand-dominance to the same side of eye-dominance. While this is certainly a valid approach, it can sometimes truly be very awkward for someone to do things this way, particularly if they show very strong hardwiring for their handedness. While it is true that training cures awkwardness, that's definitely not the only way to do it "right." http://img.xdtalk.com/forums/images/...icon_smile.gif And if someone tells you otherwise, tell them to look at Brian Enos and Larry Vickers, to name just two top-tier pistol shooters who are cross-dominant.

Enos, for example, started off using scotch-tape on his shooting glasses to shift his eye dominance (obviously, for a "defensive" shooter, this is not compatible with good results http://img.xdtalk.com/forums/images/...s/icon_lol.gif) - however, as he progressed as well as aged, he found himself actually able to be a proficient shooter ("proficiency," at his level, is something that's quite different than at our level, of-course) "despite" his cross-dominance. Vickers, interestingly enough, shoots cross-dominant (left-eye, right-hand) when using pistol, but shoots dominant-eye (left-eye, left-hand) on the carbine.

Similarly, techniques can differ. Some will tell you that the only thing that's "right" is to bring the gun more towards the shooter's eye-dominant side and to strictly never cock/tilt one's head for fear of "distorting" the view of "the tactical battlefield." While true that may be, guess what? it's not the only way to do things - Vickers (and it's hard to debate his background, isn't it? http://img.xdtalk.com/forums/images/.../icon_wink.gif) both brings the pistol over a little, as well as slightly tilts his head.

The "tactical wink" - temporarily and quickly closing one eye to acquire the necessary sight-picture before shifting back to binocular vision) is another valid technique as well, and for even the least cross-dominant individual, sometimes this method is still necessary in order to effect precision/surgical shots, particularly at longer distances, or to insure that the muzzle actually clears the barricade when shooting from the strong side (which, if you'll keep in mind, is with the non-dominant eye).

When speaking of single-hand-only techniques, cross-dominance both makes things easier as well as harder.

Search any online shooting Forum community for "cross-dominance," and you'll find many good recommendations. First find out just how cross-dominant you are, and go from there. :cool:


---

Back @ BIGBEAR92314

I recently posted this on XDTalk, to help a fellow shooter there:

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/classro...nner-help.html

In his OP, you'll see that he described his grouping as mostly low-left (he's also right-handed; he's cross-dominant, but I don't think that had much to do, at all, with what he'd experienced, and given that you are same-side-dominant, I don't believe this to be a problem with you, either), but that it was also a bit "all over."

In all honesty, I would bring the target closer, first. Establish more of a grouping so that the shots can actually be diagnostic.

The trigger is the single biggest factor that we as shooters throw shots - however, given your current target, given its distance - I honestly can't say that it's the only thing (nor can I definitively say that the grip is the problem) that you should work on.

Additionally:

A bit more detail:

- how long have you been shooting?
- shooting pistol?
- shooting Glocks?

- the target you posted: are the shots closer to the bull your first shots? or did you notice another pattern?





DWARREN123 05-03-2013 02:20

Sounds like not enough finger on the trigger causing you to push on the trigger to the left and down.
I had the same problems when I started with Glocks, adjusted finger position and got to center of target.
Just my experience. :supergrin:

Arc Angel 05-03-2013 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianfede (Post 20241567)
Assuming that his grip is what it should be, and trigger technique is, at least, adequate then: If a right-handed shooter with a bad, ‘left and low’ problem were to straighten out his support (left-side) arm, slightly bend his gun hand elbow, and slightly cant his gun hand wrist in a downward direction, do you know what’s going to happen WHEN that pistol shooter pushes his gun hand into his grasping support hand (and arm)?

THE SHOOTER WILL, QUITE NATURALLY, FIND IT TO BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO DROP HIS SHOTS INTO EITHER THE LEFT SIDE, OR THE LOWER LEFT QUADRANT OF HIS TARGET!


Above is a quote from Arc Angel and I think this is excellent advice.

:shocked: Wow! Someone who reads internet gun forums AND actually pays attention! My compliments, Sir! :thumbsup:

(I really sweated and worked hard to learn and verify these things; sometimes I question myself for, 'just giving it all away'. I don't need, 'the glory'; but I hold other strong personal reasons for being willing to share. Were I a younger man I might not - I daresay, I would not - act or feel this way.)

Thanks for the compliment! ;)

BIGBEAR92314 05-03-2013 10:32

Thanks for all the good info I will be going to the range tomorrow to try some of these suggestions.
From some of your responses I see a little background info is in order.
I am 58 right handed right eye dominant and wear glasses.
Moving closer is not an option it's an outdoor range and the closest set of target sets is at 18 yards. And at that distance I can't really see where Im hitting till I walk out to the target to see. I think I'll pick up some of those splatter dye targets so I can track where I'm hitting while shooting.
I'm new to both handguns and glocks I got a new 19 a couple of months ago but the range up here was closed till a couple of weeks ago. I've been to the range twice and fired around 200 rounds so far. I'm going again tomorrow and am going to try and go at least once a week.
Just wanted to say this forum has been a wealth of information from some very experienced members.
THANKS!!!

lethal tupperwa 05-03-2013 13:26

try putting the target up backwards so that only the blank side faces you.

concentrate on your sight picture.
top of the front sight level with the top of the rear.

an equal amount light on each side of the front sight.

hold this picture in front of the blank target.

pull the trigger with out moving the sight picture.

TSiWRX 05-04-2013 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIGBEAR92314 (Post 20243038)
Thanks for all the good info I will be going to the range tomorrow to try some of these suggestions.
From some of your responses I see a little background info is in order.
I am 58 right handed right eye dominant and wear glasses.
Moving closer is not an option it's an outdoor range and the closest set of target sets is at 18 yards. And at that distance I can't really see where Im hitting till I walk out to the target to see. I think I'll pick up some of those splatter dye targets so I can track where I'm hitting while shooting.
I'm new to both handguns and glocks I got a new 19 a couple of months ago but the range up here was closed till a couple of weeks ago. I've been to the range twice and fired around 200 rounds so far. I'm going again tomorrow and am going to try and go at least once a week.
Just wanted to say this forum has been a wealth of information from some very experienced members.
THANKS!!!

The Glock trigger isn't the most difficult to learn trigger - but it's definitely far from easy. Sure, it does offer a heck of a good reset - but it's path is a difficult one to learn.

*_A LOT_* of us either had trouble to begin with or still routinely experience such problems and must revisit the fundamentals. So, take heart, you're not alone! :wavey:

Combine the need to master the Glock's trigger path with the fact that handgun shooting is often said to be the hardest form of shooting to master, and you've got a steep learning curve in front of you.

I can understand your range limitations, but I would encourage you to find a range where you can get closer to the target. You're really making your learning curve very steep by starting out that far: more importantly, it's also throwing in another very big variable into the equation.

Part of being able to diagnose what you've got going on is that we'll need to see a fundamentally better grouping - that's not a knock on you, please don't misunderstand - that's just the facts.

It's clear that you do have a low-left trend, which, when combined with your handedness, can be said to be caused by trigger-jerk, but in all honesty, there's a lot that's probably going on, and without actually being there, live, it's going to be very hard for any of us to really say what's up.

Also, don't think that it's all about how much lead you're throwing downrange. Again, I'm *not* criticizing you. If anything, I was tremendously guilty of this during my beginning days...I threw away nearly 20K rounds :faint:my first year - those were the rounds I expended because I thought that I could better myself by simply doing more and that I could overcome fatigue by simply "pushing through." :embarassed: Neither is true. (In my first year, I shot right around 40K rounds of 9mm; I'm partially self-taught as well.)

Particularly for beginners, it's about quality rather than quantity - especially as you cannot "push through" that physical and mental fatigue barrier. Doing more simply risks that you further ingrain any bad habits.

I would encourage you to divert some of the money of that ammo fund to try to find a local instructor/school that can get you on the right path. The best place to check for this is often with your LOCAL/regional concealed-carry or shooting community online Forum. See what instructors come recommended in your area. Oftentimes, what they can accomplish in one two to four-hour private or semi-private session, with 100 to 200 rounds of ammo, can well exceed what you may be able to gain from intense and honest self-study for weeks or even months.

Finally, if you've got the time/ability, I would also think about going to get your eyes checked by an eye professional who is also a shooting hobbyist. If you can still see the front sight sharply and clearly, this may not be as important, but it's definitely something to keep in the back of your mind if you notice that you cannot *sharply* resolve your front sight.

Arc Angel 05-05-2013 06:39

I agree that 18 yards is, kind 'a, far to learn how to shoot a pistol; but look at it this way: In the old days we did everything at 25 yards!* It has been obvious to me, all along, that this isn't an, 'eye dominance' issue. (Where did that come from?) It's, equally, obvious to me that:

YOU'RE NOT WATCHING THE VERY TOP OF YOUR FRONT SIGHT. (Are you!) ;)

Neither do you have your Glock trigger stroking/breaking technique, 'down pat' yet. (Which is the reason, 'Why' I, so tersely, told you to simply read the comments on using the, 'Reverse Chapman' technique that I wrote about in the Pistolcraft Section of my on-site blog.) If you get the added tension out of the upper tendons in your gun-side forearm, you should, rather quickly, notice an improvement over what's happening, now, with all of that predominantly low-left shot dispersion. If it's an encouragement: You show some good raw talent, there - Talent that I'm sure a competent pistol instructor would be able to help you bring out and develop. :thumbsup:



* Except at my childhood indoor basement shooting range where we were only able to fire up to a mere 12 yards' distance. (Perhaps an ideal distance at which to learn and become proficient with a pistol. 'Why'? Because bad guys usually want to get in a lot closer than this before they feel confident and comfortable enough to effectively threaten you with a pistol.) ;)

TSiWRX 05-05-2013 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arc Angel (Post 20247754)
I agree that 18 yards is, kind 'a, far to learn how to shoot a pistol; but look at it this way: In the old days we did everything at 25 yards!*

That's very true. I've unfortunately never had the Scouting experience, but I did a fair part of my childhood and early-teen years at "The Y," and basic marksmanship was actually a part of their/our program. Very good point.

I don't know how I managed to forget that one! :faint: I must be getting old! :rofl:

Quote:

It has been obvious to me, all along, that this isn't an, 'eye dominance' issue. (Where did that come from?)
Jameson4all originated the suggestion. Since deerslayer01 requestedinformation, I just ran with it. :)

lethal tupperwa 05-05-2013 17:01

you do not have enough of a group to call it a group,


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