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-   -   Why is DHS hoarding ammunition? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1478713)

Bolster 03-25-2013 09:38

Why is DHS hoarding ammunition?
 
You can hardly miss the many stories about DHS buying billions of rounds of ammunition (hollowpoints) for "practice." What the heck is going on?

Rick O'Shay 03-25-2013 13:52

My understanding is that, the federal government has contracted for "options" of billions of rounds of popular calibers and trying to overwhelm ammo manufacturers, in order to keep ammo off the store shelves. Just a trickle is actually making it to store shelves, it appears. I guess that, if the government buys up virtually ALL ammo, then they can control where it ultimately is used.

I haven't seen a more reasonable explanation to date.

20South 03-25-2013 14:23

If you look at the RFP it appears that DHS wrote it to purchase "up to" a collective 1.6 billion rounds. DHS does practice with duty ammo and do not use the FMJ rounds most of us use for cost effectiveness. Given that, it hardly explains why regular target ammo is nowhere to be found. I have no trouble finding JHP rounds around my part of the world. However, up to 1.6B of anything is a huge number.

tenforme 03-25-2013 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolster (Post 20121674)
You can hardly miss the many stories about DHS buying billions of rounds of ammunition (hollowpoints) for "practice." What the heck is going on?

The stories are distortions of fact - that's what's going on.

The reality is that in the last 5 months more guns have been sold than in the last 2 years combined - many if not most to first time gun owners. This has resulted in unprecedented demand for ammo. Add in the hoarding from the "OMG the world is ending crowd" and the net result is ammo shortages and stupid prices.

TheJ 03-25-2013 15:05

I honestly think the DHS purchase stuff is a distraction. As usual with stories like this there is just enough facts mixed in to convince many that there is really something to worry about but IMHO it is a giant nothing sandwich.

IMHO we have plenty of other REAL threats to be worried about like the so called universal background checks that is more likely to pass than folks realize and will negatively impact us in ways most haven't even imagined yet and lead to national registry (confiscation) upon subsequent tragedies.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1478757

Ruble Noon 03-25-2013 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay (Post 20122386)
My understanding is that, the federal government has contracted for "options" of billions of rounds of popular calibers and trying to overwhelm ammo manufacturers, in order to keep ammo off the store shelves. Just a trickle is actually making it to store shelves, it appears. I guess that, if the government buys up virtually ALL ammo, then they can control where it ultimately is used.

I haven't seen a more reasonable explanation to date.

This.

Under the radar gun control. A gun without ammo ain't much good.

mac66 03-25-2013 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay (Post 20122386)
My understanding is that, the federal government has contracted for "options" of billions of rounds of popular calibers and trying to overwhelm ammo manufacturers, in order to keep ammo off the store shelves. Just a trickle is actually making it to store shelves, it appears. I guess that, if the government buys up virtually ALL ammo, then they can control where it ultimately is used.

I haven't seen a more reasonable explanation to date.

I believe this also. It is like commodity trading. They don't actually have to own the ammo to control the commodity, they only need to own the option.

maxmanta 03-25-2013 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac66 (Post 20122736)
I believe this also. It is like commodity trading. They don't actually have to own the ammo to control the commodity, they only need to own the option.

Such contracts have a delivery date. You must either sell the option by the delivery date or take delivery of the commodity.

Wake_jumper 03-25-2013 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay (Post 20122386)
My understanding is that, the federal government has contracted for "options" of billions of rounds of popular calibers and trying to overwhelm ammo manufacturers, in order to keep ammo off the store shelves. Just a trickle is actually making it to store shelves, it appears. I guess that, if the government buys up virtually ALL ammo, then they can control where it ultimately is used.

I haven't seen a more reasonable explanation to date.

They have cornered the market and will sell it back to the suppliers at a huge profit.

xXxplosive 03-25-2013 17:26

Lets look at the Big picture.....Ammo, Mrap Assault Ambush Armored vehicles, approval to kill American citizens with Drones.....so all joking aside....they refuse to answer to congress.....what's with this ?

the monk 03-25-2013 17:37

This is typical gov contracting. DHS has negotiated a rate per round and a not to exceed amount. The not to exceed (NTE) can be 2 billion rounds but they may only buy 2 million. They do this to negotiate the lowest possible price per round and also to benefit the winner of contract as they would know the maximum amount they would have to put out over the 5 years of the contract. This allows them to budget if there would be any additional tooling needed.

FireForged 03-25-2013 18:24

The Federal agencies are not buying ammo in attempts to keep it off of the store shelves... Ammo is absent from the shelves because citizens are simply buying it up. The Feds are buying what?.. 357sig and 40cal? That is the only stuff that is still in the LGS, its the 9mm and 22LR that is absent across the country.. who is buying 9mm? and 22LR..Citizens are.

ray9898 03-25-2013 18:34

They are not hoarding ammo. The problem is the people putting this crap out make a living by breaking the latest 'outrage'. Every time it is reported the contract is misread or misinterpreted. Either someone is an idiot or they are simply fabricating things to attract viewers to their media outlet. The 3000 MRAPS turned into 16, the rest went to the Marines. 21 million rounds turned into 200k for the Federal LE training center. 1.2 billion rounds was an 'up to' contract spread over 5 years and had nothing to do with how many rounds would actually be delivered. It goes on and on but certain sites keep reporting BS to keep fueling the outrage.

bear62 03-25-2013 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXxplosive (Post 20123002)
Lets look at the Big picture.....Ammo, Mrap Assault Ambush Armored vehicles, approval to kill American citizens with Drones.....so all joking aside....they refuse to answer to congress.....what's with this ?

Can you say Nazi Germany?? :faint:

cowboy1964 03-25-2013 19:06

1.6 billion rounds over what, five years? Do you have any idea what a drop in the bucket that is, overall?

AK_Stick 03-25-2013 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXxplosive (Post 20123002)
Lets look at the Big picture.....Ammo, Mrap Assault Ambush Armored vehicles, approval to kill American citizens with Drones.....so all joking aside....they refuse to answer to congress.....what's with this ?



All joking aside? You making yourself look like a loony.

ray9898 03-25-2013 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964 (Post 20123386)
1.6 billion rounds over what, five years? Do you have any idea what a drop in the bucket that is, overall?

Exactly.

DHS is comprised of a dozen or more agencies and the Federal law enforcement training centers. Just take the 3 biggest agencies which are Border Patrol, ICE and Coast Guard and you are supplying 90k+.

Now lets add some numbers using a bare minimum standard.

Qualify quarterly with rifle and pistol....800 rounds per year

100 round practice allotment per month per weapon platform.....2400 rounds per year


3200 rounds each x 90k = 288 million rounds per year.

That is just for the 3 top agencies at a pretty low end training level. Now does 1.2 billion rounds over 5 years look like such a big number when you look at it logically?


Context....without it numbers are meaningless.

Jakestir 03-25-2013 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray9898 (Post 20123467)
Exactly.

DHS is comprised of a dozen or more agencies and the Federal law enforcement training centers. Just take the 3 biggest agencies which are Border Patrol, ICE and Coast Guard and you are supplying 90k+.

Now lets add some numbers using a bare minimum standard.

Qualify quarterly with rifle and pistol....800 rounds per year

100 round practice allotment per month per weapon platform.....2400 rounds per year


3200 rounds each x 90k = 288 million rounds per year.

That is just for the 3 top agencies at a pretty low end training level. Now does 1.2 billion rounds over 5 years look like such a big number when you look at it logically?


Context....without it numbers are meaningless.

Great response

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Bolster 03-25-2013 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK_Stick (Post 20123431)
All joking aside? You making yourself look like a loony.

Between 1933 and 1939, there were a lot of alarmists in Germany who were concerned about what was happening to the German culture and government. Of course, the Nazis mocked them and called them "loonies."

AK_Stick 03-25-2013 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolster (Post 20123945)
Between 1933 and 1939, there were a lot of alarmists in Germany who were concerned about what was happening to the German culture and government. Of course, the Nazis mocked them and called them "loonies."


:rofl:
Whatever you say. This isn't the 30's and we're not Nazis.


But continue making a fool of yourselves, I'm enjoying the laugh.

20South 03-25-2013 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray9898 (Post 20123467)
Exactly.

DHS is comprised of a dozen or more agencies and the Federal law enforcement training centers. Just take the 3 biggest agencies which are Border Patrol, ICE and Coast Guard and you are supplying 90k+.

Now lets add some numbers using a bare minimum standard.

Qualify quarterly with rifle and pistol....800 rounds per year

100 round practice allotment per month per weapon platform.....2400 rounds per year


3200 rounds each x 90k = 288 million rounds per year.

That is just for the 3 top agencies at a pretty low end training level. Now does 1.2 billion rounds over 5 years look like such a big number when you look at it logically?


Context....without it numbers are meaningless.

Ive seen two articles referencing that DHS uses 15 million rounds annually on training. Coast Guard was excluded from the contract purchase. So as in my above post, I dont think they are hoarding ammo and understand the "up to" specification, but I dont think these numbers are accurate.

"The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga., and others like it run by DHS use up to 15 million rounds a year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises. "

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...dhs-stocks-up/

There are other sources, but that was the easiest one to find.

GunHo198 03-25-2013 22:24

Was going to start a new thread but this one is already on the topic so here's a link:

Congress is also seeking answers.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...ammo-contracts


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ray9898 03-25-2013 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by 20South (Post 20123984)
Ive seen two articles referencing that DHS uses 15 million rounds annually on training. Coast Guard was excluded from the contract purchase. So as in my above post, I dont think they are hoarding ammo and understand the "up to" specification, but I dont think these numbers are accurate.

"The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga., and others like it run by DHS use up to 15 million rounds a year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises. "

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...dhs-stocks-up/

There are other sources, but that was the easiest one to find.

That is simply what is used by the training centers which run the LE academies and specialized in service training. Quals, practice and the majority of training is provided locally by each agency at local facilities and has nothing to do with the multi-agency FLETC.

ArmoryDoc 03-25-2013 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXxplosive (Post 20123002)
Lets look at the Big picture.....Ammo, Mrap Assault Ambush Armored vehicles, approval to kill American citizens with Drones.....so all joking aside....they refuse to answer to congress.....what's with this ?

The simple answer is, they anticipate armed conflict with American citizens. Now, what over ? Who knows. But they aren't arming up to stop the invading Muslim hoards from Somalia now, are they ? They are arming up to confront Americans on a large scale. There is no other answer when you put it all together.

BlackPaladin 03-26-2013 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolster (Post 20123945)
Between 1933 and 1939, there were a lot of alarmists in Germany who were concerned about what was happening to the German culture and government. Of course, the Nazis mocked them and called them "loonies."

As much as this ammo purchase BS has come across GT, there should be a required posting for everyone to CALM DOWN. Anyone that knows anything, knows that the "big purchase" is not all that big and was layed out in small increments.

If you believe anything else, you should tighten the foil.


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