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-   -   Veterans Receive Letters From VA Prohibiting Ownership or Purchase of Firea (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1473357)

Raz-n-co 02-22-2013 10:07

Veterans Receive Letters From VA Prohibiting Ownership or Purchase of Firea
 
What's next??? :steamed:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013...e-of-firearms/

ray9898 02-22-2013 10:42

Of course....this is nothing new and is a longstanding diagnosis. Anyone who is adjudicated as "incompetent", veteran or not, is the very definition of what is considered a seriously mentally ill person. Not only can they no longer own guns but they can no longer make any decisions for them self, a caretaker will be placed in charge of all their affairs including finances and other important life decisions. These are the people who would have been institutionalized just a couple of decades ago.

This is not some lax standard they just throw around, it is a very serious diagnosis which must be proven and may be contested. Very few people reach this level and it pretty much encompasses the very top end of the scale which includes people who just cannot function in society in their present state.


It is what is referred to in question F on the Federal 4473.

Quote:

f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

volsbear 02-22-2013 10:44

As long as the diagnosis is legit, I don't have a problem with these people being exluded from ownership.

JAS104 02-22-2013 10:46

Anyone remember Ft.Hood?

FullClip 02-22-2013 10:56

I tried reading the clip from the VA letter and am left a little confused. I'd like to be able to see the letter in it's entire form.

I'm a veteran.

I never saw anything close to combat (other than fights between us engine room crew members against the 'forward pukes' about what movie would be played that night) during my stint in the Navy.

But if this letter sounds like it is to a vet who is getting VA benefits for PTSD or some other mental issue.

JAS104 02-22-2013 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullClip (Post 20019110)
I tried reading the clip from the VA letter and am left a little confused. I'd like to be able to see the letter in it's entire form.

I'm a veteran.

I never saw anything close to combat (other than fights between us engine room crew members against the 'forward pukes' about what movie would be played that night) during my stint in the Navy.

But if this letter sounds like it is to a vet who is getting VA benefits for PTSD or some other mental issue.

I agree. Doesnt really look like its something sent to every veteran, probably only individuals under psychiatric care for PTSD, etc.

ray9898 02-22-2013 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAS104 (Post 20019119)
I agree. Doesnt really look like its something sent to every veteran, probably only individuals under psychiatric care for PTSD, etc.


Not simply those being treated for PTSD, depression, ect....this is the most serious cases where the person is so ill a caregiver must be appointed for them because they cannot function in society by them self.

FullClip 02-22-2013 11:23

Sorry, but this thread is a 'duplicate'...


link to earlier thread on same subject...

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1473186

nursetim 02-22-2013 14:47

Has anybody YOU know, actually received this letter?

PicardMD 02-22-2013 17:49

This is a mental health issue, not a veterans issue.
Being a veteran does not give one any special rights to circumvent mental health prohibitions in gun ownership.

Using VA's and veterans in this way to promote gun rights is dishonest, and no better than the anti-gun crowd's dishonest tactics.

A 70 yo guy with dementia and paranoid behaviors should not be allowed to own guns, for the same reason he shouldn't be allowed to drive or be left alone in a house with working stoves. I don't care if he is a highly decorated war veteran with a chest full of medals. I am grateful for his service to our country and I will do everything medically possible to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns and he shouldn't be paraded out by us for "gun rights." Doing so is just as bad as Obama dragging Newtown or Aurora victims out for his gun control agenda.

A 36 yo guy with severe PTSD who is prone to violent outbursts should not be allowed to own guns. I don't care if he was a Tier One operator who has kept our country safe by killing many terrorists. I am grateful for his service to our country and will do everything I can to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns at this point and shouldn't be used as a puppet by us for "gun rights."

Bruce M 02-22-2013 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by PicardMD (Post 20020338)
This is a mental health issue, not a veterans issue.
Being a veteran does not give one any special rights to circumvent mental health prohibitions in gun ownership.

Using VA's and veterans in this way to promote gun rights is dishonest, and no better than the anti-gun crowd's dishonest tactics.

A 70 yo guy with dementia and paranoid behaviors should not be allowed to own guns, for the same reason he shouldn't be allowed to drive or be left alone in a house with working stoves. I don't care if he is a highly decorated war veteran with a chest full of medals. I am grateful for his service to our country and I will do everything medically possible to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns and he shouldn't be paraded out by us for "gun rights." Doing so is just as bad as Obama dragging Newtown or Aurora victims out for his gun control agenda.

A 36 yo guy with severe PTSD who is prone to violent outbursts should not be allowed to own guns. I don't care if he was a Tier One operator who has kept our country safe by killing many terrorists. I am grateful for his service to our country and will do everything I can to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns at this point and shouldn't be used as a puppet by us for "gun rights."


Thank you for a well written post that was obviously well thought out.

Bushflyr 02-22-2013 20:37

How did you manage to get ~4.3 billion posts?

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b6.../4milposts.jpg

ray9898 02-22-2013 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushflyr (Post 20020934)
How did you manage to get ~4.3 million posts?

Strange.

BobbyS 02-22-2013 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by PicardMD (Post 20020338)
This is a mental health issue, not a veterans issue.
Being a veteran does not give one any special rights to circumvent mental health prohibitions in gun ownership.

Using VA's and veterans in this way to promote gun rights is dishonest, and no better than the anti-gun crowd's dishonest tactics.

A 70 yo guy with dementia and paranoid behaviors should not be allowed to own guns, for the same reason he shouldn't be allowed to drive or be left alone in a house with working stoves. I don't care if he is a highly decorated war veteran with a chest full of medals. I am grateful for his service to our country and I will do everything medically possible to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns and he shouldn't be paraded out by us for "gun rights." Doing so is just as bad as Obama dragging Newtown or Aurora victims out for his gun control agenda.

A 36 yo guy with severe PTSD who is prone to violent outbursts should not be allowed to own guns. I don't care if he was a Tier One operator who has kept our country safe by killing many terrorists. I am grateful for his service to our country and will do everything I can to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns at this point and shouldn't be used as a puppet by us for "gun rights."


What about the 36 yr. old guy that doesn't have PTSD who is prone to violent outbursts? Nobody has any paper on him. Those are the guys to worry about. The thousands upon thosands of military PTSD people obviously have not went out and killed thousands of people. If they were so volatile, as it appears most think they are, why haven't we seen the thousands of killings that their numbers would bring?

nursetim 02-22-2013 23:02

Bobby, I don't think Jean Luc was being as general as you are. He seems to be making a specific point. His point is, and correct me if I'm wrong Jean Luc, anyone with serious mental health issues does not need to have access to guns. Be they Audie Murphy or joe smuckatelli. Thank you for your service, now let us take care of you and help you get better. If we don't, then shame on us.

BobbyS 02-22-2013 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by nursetim (Post 20021313)
Bobby, I don't think Jean Luc was being as general as you are. He seems to be making a specific point. His point is, and correct me if I'm wrong Jean Luc, anyone with serious mental health issues does not need to have access to guns. Be they Audie Murphy or joe smuckatelli. Thank you for your service, now let us take care of you and help you get better. If we don't, then shame on us.


I want to know how the hell you knew I was Audie Murphy.


Edit: I also agree with both of you that people that ARE whack jobs should not have a gun. I just have issue with the generalization that all these vets people talk about are all whacko.

JuneyBooney 02-23-2013 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by volsbear (Post 20019047)
As long as the diagnosis is legit, I don't have a problem with these people being exluded from ownership.

The problem I have with it is that there are people who want to kill people that have done them wrong but not hurt others. This in my arguments makes them not dangerous. Why do humans have to act like sheep? :upeyes: If a vet is that bad off he would probably be in the horsepital.

Bill Keith 02-23-2013 03:54

A determination of incompetency is made by a court and is not that easy to get. Incompetent means "Incompetent"
either through severe mental illness or physical disability such that you can't manage your own affairs.

JackMac 02-23-2013 06:12

A court should make the call, not the VA. A judicial official should, based upon the evidence, decide whether the person is a danger to himself or others, not the VA. If you are a vet and have a ptsd diagnosis and have a person appointed to handle your $, typically your spouse, then expect a Brady letter brother. There was a bill introduce two years ago by NC Senator Burr....the Veterans' Firearms Rights Restoration Bill or some such name. Never went anywhere

BlackPaladin 02-23-2013 06:36

I am a Veteran, this is not a Vet issue it has already been discussed.

What is important everyone, is LOOK AT THE OPs POST COUNT.

Holy frick.

ray9898 02-23-2013 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyS (Post 20021277)
The thousands upon thosands of military PTSD people obviously have not went out and killed thousands of people. If they were so volatile, as it appears most think they are, why haven't we seen the thousands of killings that their numbers would bring?


...but this has nothing to do with the average case of PTSD. This is the extreme cases that are the abnormality.

JAS104 02-23-2013 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by nursetim (Post 20019751)
Has anybody YOU know, actually received this letter?

Nope


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

JAS104 02-23-2013 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by PicardMD (Post 20020338)
This is a mental health issue, not a veterans issue.
Being a veteran does not give one any special rights to circumvent mental health prohibitions in gun ownership.

Using VA's and veterans in this way to promote gun rights is dishonest, and no better than the anti-gun crowd's dishonest tactics.

A 70 yo guy with dementia and paranoid behaviors should not be allowed to own guns, for the same reason he shouldn't be allowed to drive or be left alone in a house with working stoves. I don't care if he is a highly decorated war veteran with a chest full of medals. I am grateful for his service to our country and I will do everything medically possible to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns and he shouldn't be paraded out by us for "gun rights." Doing so is just as bad as Obama dragging Newtown or Aurora victims out for his gun control agenda.

A 36 yo guy with severe PTSD who is prone to violent outbursts should not be allowed to own guns. I don't care if he was a Tier One operator who has kept our country safe by killing many terrorists. I am grateful for his service to our country and will do everything I can to help him. But no, he shouldn't own guns at this point and shouldn't be used as a puppet by us for "gun rights."

Well said Picard, thanks for posting


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

podwich 02-23-2013 11:42

Doing a little reading, it seems the issue here is a rating of incompetency for a veteran managing his own benefits. By law, if the VA rates a veteran as incompetent to manage his benefits, he is also ineligible to own a firearm.

In general, I agree that a mentally incompetent person should not own firearms. The concern is that this issue through the VA appears to be a determination of a veteran being rated as incompetent to manage his benefits, not a court-determined finding of mental incompetence. Further, from what I've read, it seems this process may be started by as little as a veteran stating his wife pays the bills when asked who manages the finances at home (leading an examiner to check a box indicating the veteran can't manage his own finances). There is then a proposal to appoint a fiduciary for the veteran, followed by an opportunity to contest this. If the opportunity is ignored, the finding of incompetency may be made (which then includes ineligibility to own firearms).

In short, being denied firearms ownership due to actually being incompetent/mentally defective is appropriate. Being denied firearms ownership due to some weird VA process is inappropriate (and awful).

Ruggles 02-23-2013 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushflyr (Post 20020934)
How did you manage to get ~4.3 billion posts?

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b6.../4milposts.jpg

:rofl:

No fingers just numbs left after that many post :rofl:


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