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-   -   G20 - Fails to Pick up Next Cartridge (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1471373)

polarctica 02-12-2013 16:43

G20 - Fails to Pick up Next Cartridge
 
I have a fairly new G20sf that I'm quite fond of, however it almost always jams at least once going through a clip of 15 rounds. The jam consists of failing to pick up the next round from the clip. The fired round is ejected and the next round begins to lift from the clip and the slide actually smashes it in the middle of the case - doesn't pick it up at the rim, but appears to miss and catches the shell halfway. This leaves a nasty dent in the round.

This occurs with both the stock recoil spring and Wolff 20# spring.

I'm a very experienced shooter and believe I've got a firm hold (i.e. not limp-wristing it).

Any thoughts?

dsa1115 02-12-2013 16:53

Are you using factory ammunition or reloads? Are you using Glock brand mags, and have you experienced problems with a variety of magazines?

F106 Fan 02-12-2013 17:07

It's very likely that the slide isn't coming all the way to the rear. Catching the case midway is exactly what would happen.

So, why isn't the slide coming all the way to the rear? Why not try the factory spring first? Or at least try it first...

What ammo are you using? If it is too wimpy, there won't be enough force to cycle the slide.

Richard

polarctica 02-12-2013 17:36

Factory mags - I have 3 mags with the same results. I get the same results with the factory recoil spring, but it happens less frequently.

I have suspected my reloads, and I've tried different powder weights up and down to see if it changes anything - and it didn't - still jams. These are fairly stiff loads as well. I know this isn't a reload forum, but I'm using brand new DoubleTap nickel brass, with CCI300 primers, 10 gr of 800X and 180 gr Barry's or 180 gr Hornady XTP. I've gone lower and higher with the powder weight as well. Also used CCI 350's. I match factory OAL.

Are we leaning toward my reloads?

dbow 02-12-2013 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarctica (Post 19980525)
I have a fairly new G20sf that I'm quite fond of, however it almost always jams at least once going through a clip of 15 rounds. The jam consists of failing to pick up the next round from the clip. The fired round is ejected and the next round begins to lift from the clip and the slide actually smashes it in the middle of the case - doesn't pick it up at the rim, but appears to miss and catches the shell halfway. This leaves a nasty dent in the round.

This occurs with both the stock recoil spring and Wolff 20# spring.

I'm a very experienced shooter and believe I've got a firm hold (i.e. not limp-wristing it).

Any thoughts?

I'm no expert but i would try shooting from a rest. I would also try some different ammo. Either you are limpwristing, or your ammo is very weak.

CybrSlydr 02-12-2013 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarctica (Post 19980525)
I'm a very experienced shooter...

Then one might think you would understand and know the difference between a clip and a magazine.

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Cli...10_1464120.jpg

Pet peeve of mine...

polarctica 02-12-2013 18:01

Pet peeves, aside, I appreciate your feedback. I'll do some more shooting and try a rest. I'm a revolver man, and limp wristing doesn't have the same effect, so maybe some humble pie is in order.

GLOCK19FTW 02-12-2013 18:06

I can't think of a single reason why a "fairly new" Glock wouldn't feed the next round.

If everything checks out, I'd send it in & have them fix or replace it.

rl356 02-12-2013 18:23

May very well have something to do with the use of clips. If you happen to have some magazines for it (preferably factory made), load those up with some factory fresh ammunition, use the stock recoil spring, get a firm grip on it, and squeeze the trigger.

orangeride 02-12-2013 18:26

Have a glock guy run a few rounds through it. The good thing is it seems to be doing it almost every mag for you. It should be easy to figure out. I had new 20sf that was ftfeed jamming to the hard left but only did it every 30-50 rnds. I burned a lot of ammo figuring that one out. Either the slide is not coming back far enough or there's something wrong with the mag catch and how the mag is held in position. How far does it throw the empty's? You need 2-3' to ensure reliable function. You can load lighter but you really need to keep things tight. Good luck.

dbow 02-12-2013 18:33

i also did experience the same failures with my G20 when i first got it. I purchased a dpi spring and it didn't really help until i shot about 50 rounds with a rest. Problem went away. Anyway, in my case, it was the indian, not the bow.

polarctica 02-12-2013 18:42

Thanks for the feedback. Feedback is pretty consistent. For guys who don't live and breathe this stuff, you are all very helpful and keep the newcomers....coming.

BMiracletx 02-12-2013 19:19

Add another one to the list on this. I had a 20sf that I couldn't get to run right. Glock was no help and I tried 6 different mags, regular mag springs and extra power mag springs, 4 different weights of recoil springs, and every way of holding it and could never get it sorted out... until I switched reloading dies.

By chance are you loading your 10mm with Hornady dies? I found that my Hornady sizing die was out of spec and wasn't sizing the case down enough causing some setback when the round hit the feed ramp and causing it to "stick". I switched to a Redding sizer die and it all went away.

cityborncountrylivin 02-12-2013 21:51

I had problems with hornaday 10mm also

ron59 02-12-2013 21:57

What type of bullet you using?

I've heard of Glocks in .45ACP having problems with wad cutters (I realize you have a 10mm but it could be related). I think the feed ramp angle is the issue. Try some factory ammo or something (ball ammo) if you haven't done so.

Maybe your OAL needs to be changed in that gun if it's not wadcutters.

SDGlock23 02-13-2013 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarctica (Post 19980772)
. I know this isn't a reload forum, but I'm using brand new DoubleTap nickel brass, with CCI300 primers, 10 gr of 800X and 180 gr Barry's or 180 gr Hornady XTP.

Yeah that's pretty stiff. Book max for a 180gr jacketed is 8.7gr, so you're 15% over book, I'm not really sure what max is for plated, which needs to be loaded like lead. How does your brass look? While it's possible that it's your gun, it could be your handloads too.

polarctica 02-13-2013 10:57

I will go back and try factory loads again and work on some more reloads and check my aol....and focus on what may be my limp wrists (rats). I use Lee dies and I haven't treated Barry's any different than the XTPs.

I started my loads at 8 gr of 800x and worked up thinking my recoil spring was too strong, but then again, it happens with the factory recoil spring. My fired brass and primers are very much the same between 9 gr and 10 gr, and I'm comfortable with the load.

However - I hadn't thought of this before, my brass for reloads or factory loads have a dent or dimple 3/4 of the way up the brass that is about the size of the tip of a Sharpy (marker). It isn't deep, but obvious. Is this normal? I don't see how whatever is causing this could be causing feeding problems, but again...

By the way, I said my G20sf is "fairly new." I purchased this brand new 5 or 6 years ago and have put around 400 rounds through it - off and on between my frustrations. In my mind that constituted 'fairly new.'

Thanks again, everybody.

ii's open 02-13-2013 15:30

Buy a 1911 problem solved. Jokes aside, have you tried polishing the feed ramp? I had a similar problem with a aftermarket barrel(stormlake) wouldn't cycle, I suspected the angle of the feed ramp was off. I returned it and bought another barrel problem solved.

Matt Berry 02-15-2013 06:36

I'm surprised no one else has asked, but since you are using reloads, do you have a case gauge? Have you checked your ammo to see if it will pass a case gauge or barrel check. When I first started reloading I didn't check my rounds. Now days I use a case gauge for every one. Sure it adds a little more time to the process, but I don't have to worry about out of spec ammo causing the occasional failure to feed.

F106 Fan 02-15-2013 07:22

On the underside of the slide there is a ramp that is supposed to ride over the top of the round in the magazine. As the slide travels to the rear, this ramp should eventually get behind the top round and shove the case up the feed ramp.

This isn't happening, right?

So, either the slide isn't coming all the way to the rear or the top round isn't in the right position. Is there any chance that your OAL combined with the bullet profile is dragging in the magazine?

Take the barrel out of the gun and drop a few rounds in the chamber. They should ride on the edge of the case mouth (where it hits the ridge at the front of the chamber), the bullet should not contact the rifling and the round should spin easily.

Another possibility is the bevel on the leading edge of the ramp on the slide. Here is a discussion:
http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13970

You can see from the pictures that Glock has changed the bevel throughout the life of the guns. I'm not suggesting you add to the bevel but if you get a chance to see a similar gun, check if it matches yours.

Then there is bullet profile. What are you using and how does it compare with factory?

In fact, how does factory ammo work in your gun? I am willing to put all the blame on your reloads but it would be easier to justify if factory ammo worked perfectly.

I find it odd that Hodgdon doesn't provide a minimum charge for 800-X but I also wonder why you are so far over MAX. When the round fires, the case expands against the chamber. The prevents the case from moving rearward in the chamber until the pressure dies off. When the case finally moves to the rear, it unlocks the breech by pushing the slide to the rear away from the barrel.

I can't imagine that being overpressure helps the situation. It just about has to interfere with the timing of the unlocking and the impulse of the recoil. Whether this would slow the slide down or speed it up, I have no idea.

In the 1911 world, we use a rubber buffer on the recoil guide rod to absorb the impact of the slide against the frame. One result is that the slide doesn't move as far to the rear. You don't have anything like this in your Glock, right?

I'm just tossing out things to think about. Most probably won't be helpful.

Richard

F106 Fan 02-15-2013 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarctica (Post 19983501)
I will go back and try factory loads again and work on some more reloads and check my aol....and focus on what may be my limp wrists (rats). I use Lee dies and I haven't treated Barry's any different than the XTPs.

I'm not a big fan of the 'limp wrist' concept. I think you can hold a pistol with just a couple of fingers and it will still work. In fact, the gun MUST work when shot weak hand unsupported while hanging upside down from a tree limb. Seriously, these guns are supposed to SHOOT!

The other day, my grandson got into this topic so I had him shoot a Sig 1911 holding it lightly with only a couple of fingers. Just tight enough to keep from dropping the gun. It cycled perfectly. I have tried it with my G21SF and had the same results. It cycles perfectly.

But that's not your gun... :dunno:

As to Lee dies, the Lee sizing die has a smaller radius at the opening than most other dies. As a result, it sizes just a little farther down the case. That's a good thing!

Quote:


I started my loads at 8 gr of 800x and worked up thinking my recoil spring was too strong, but then again, it happens with the factory recoil spring. My fired brass and primers are very much the same between 9 gr and 10 gr, and I'm comfortable with the load.
If you start reading on page 59 of Speer Rloading Manual #14, you will see where they talk about 'reading' primers. In fact, there is no discernable difference in the appearance at up to 20% overpressure. In other words, reading primers is hogwash! By the time there are signs indicating something is wrong, you are at least 20% over.

Quote:


However - I hadn't thought of this before, my brass for reloads or factory loads have a dent or dimple 3/4 of the way up the brass that is about the size of the tip of a Sharpy (marker). It isn't deep, but obvious. Is this normal? I don't see how whatever is causing this could be causing feeding problems, but again...
That mark could be from the ejection port. Look for some copper coloring on the edge of the port. Consider this: The round just fired and was pushed against the chamber with about 30,000 psi. If there was a dimple in the case before it fired, it sure won't be there afterwards. So, the dimple is created during extraction. My guess: The case hits the lower edge of ejection port.

Edit: If the mark is more of a scrape, it could be dragging against the top round in the magazine. Clearly, the extracting case does touch the top round but it shouldn't get more than a slight scrape.

Richard

polarctica 02-15-2013 15:18

ii's Open and Matt Berry - thanks for the feedback. Since this failure to feed occurs with both the stock barrel and a Wolff barrel, I suspect the ramp is OK. I'm also buying a case gauge.

F106, thanks for the great dialogue. Here are some answers/comments:
*No, the slide is NOT getting behind the round to lift it from the mag

*My AOL is identical to factory, but no case gauge, so I'm also suspecting my reloads - especially since factory is not doing this (to my memory - it has been awhile since I've bought a box of shells, but plan on it now)

*No idea about the bevel, but if opportunity permits, I'll compare. If my box of factory loads work, then this obviously isn't a problem

*I've tried different loads with 180gr XTPs over 800x - starting from 8gr up to 10gr with no difference in functionality - still fails to pick up at least 1 of 15 rounds

*no rubber buffer on my guide rod

*I agree that a gun should shoot with floppy wrists, but I plan on testing this as well

*As far as the dimple goes, it is a dimple - an indentation caused during extraction. I think your supposition is correct - hitting somewhere on my ejection port. Can't see any evidence of this on the port, and I'm saddened that my brass isn't beautiful, but it will still reload fine

*And finally comments about my loads. I love to reload and I enjoy seeing what a round can reach - within reason. 30.06 and .44 mag have been my pet favorites and obviously I'm not overly familiar with a semi-auto - but I love my G20sf and will keep tinkering. I suspect my reloads are at fault and I'll go back to the drawing boards and work up some new loads, use a case gauge, and compare against a box of factory ammo. I like the idea of 15 rounds of near 41 mag power. It may not be that exciting to some, but that's OK. As far as I can tell, I'm not getting any slide slap and my shells don't show over-pressure signs (primers aside), I still have both eyes and a functioning pistol. I like it.

Thanks, all.

F106 Fan 02-15-2013 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by polarctica (Post 19991753)
*And finally comments about my loads. I love to reload and I enjoy seeing what a round can reach - within reason. 30.06 and .44 mag have been my pet favorites and obviously I'm not overly familiar with a semi-auto - but I love my G20sf and will keep tinkering. I suspect my reloads are at fault and I'll go back to the drawing boards and work up some new loads, use a case gauge, and compare against a box of factory ammo. I like the idea of 15 rounds of near 41 mag power. It may not be that exciting to some, but that's OK. As far as I can tell, I'm not getting any slide slap and my shells don't show over-pressure signs (primers aside), I still have both eyes and a functioning pistol. I like it.

800-X is a very slow powder. Ordinarily, that would be a good thing for heavy loads like the 10mm. It's just that it doesn't seem to come up in conversations over on the Reloading forum here at GlockTalk.

Maybe there is a better powder to use.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Richard

intenseneal 02-15-2013 16:18

Strange my G23 will eat anything I feed it with no issues (.40SW is just a short 10mm Auto) and the feed ramps should be the same for the .40SW and 10mm. Most Glocks are not picky about ammo type at all, one of the many nice things about Glock. Try a factory load and be sure you dont get 10mm FBI load, it has less powder than a normal 10mm, FBI did not like the recoil of a full load on the 10mm. That ending up leading to the development of the .40SW. Any how, the G30 may not like the FBI load or any weak loads for that matter considering it has a dual recoil spring. Just the 2 cents of a newb.

China boy 02-15-2013 18:22

My g23 is doing the same thing. Its either one of my clips. In which I need to label them. Or, I think its from limp wristing. Try gripping the gun harder. It seems to work for my so far.


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