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-   -   .22 ammo (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1470852)

snowwdog 02-10-2013 08:43

.22 ammo
 
so how many of us can get together and pool our money to start a .22 factory? How much could it cost? Its just lead wire swaged and copper plated. Brass disks formed to the brass. Seems simple enuff. We could do it. And the demand for .22's will never stop.

XDRoX 02-10-2013 10:32

You shouldn't drink this early in the morning.

freakshow10mm 02-10-2013 11:05

The machinery is relatively expensive but the hardest part is the priming compound manufacturing and loading into the cases. In order to either handle or manufacture the priming compound, you need to be licensed as an explosives manufacturer or dealer, since primers and priming compounds are explosives.

snowwdog 02-10-2013 13:45

CCI states that they have been running 24/7 for years trying to keep up with demand. Why would they not add capacity? Is the equipment really that expensive? Or do the ammo companies keep the supply low to keep the prices up?

freakshow10mm 02-10-2013 15:18

CCI has custom built machinery, not something like a Camdex or AmmoLoad for a couple thousand rounds per hour. CCI's machinery manufactures 4 million rounds of rimfire ammunition each production day. A setup like theirs is a few million dollars in machinery and support.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=EdNkfTS0lOQ

Expansion on that production line means a new building, new machinery, new equipment support, and labor. It's not a snap your fingers move. The corporate board at ATK must give the OK for the expansion. Contrary to Internet belief, the profit ammunition manufacturers make on ammunition selling only to wholesalers isn't much. The wholesale distributors and retail dealers make more in profit per sale than the ammunition manufacturer does. Wholesale pricing isn't driven very much by retail pricing. Retail is generally set based on wholesale. The panic demand surges in recent years have no bearing on wholesale pricing, which has been stagnant for years.

If you want to make real money in this industry, you must manufacture it yourself and sell only to retail consumers and deal with the headaches associated with that (you better have a real good shipping department too). It's much easier for a business to sell wholesale than it is retail. Much less stress selling to only 20 companies than it is 37 million retail customers direct.

freakshow10mm 02-10-2013 15:26

Furthermore, if you are selling every round of ammunition you can manufacture with current facilities and still have a demand for your ammunition from people that are willing to wait some time, that is actually really good. If you are barely meeting demand with no demand futures, it can be a scary position in business. Producing just less than demand in a market with very little competition yet high demand is a good position.

Aguila
Armscor
Eley
Fiocchi
Lapua
Remington
SK
Winchester
Wolf

That's the competition to the ATK ammunition families for rimfire (Federal, CCI, Speer). The only real competition is Remington and Winchester. The rest are junk or target only.

njl 02-15-2014 16:15

oops...meant to start a new thread.

dbarry 02-16-2014 07:14

I'm in snowdog!

Somebody set out do do it over 150 years ago and it's been repeated dozens of times since, despite the challenges.

Another article that explains the challenges of 22 rimfire.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...=27&sub=28&q=1

High Altitude 02-18-2014 07:33

Someone has to do it eventually or supply will never meet demand. Knowing business today though (risk adverse) they will still be saying in 10 years what they are saying today, demand might go down we do not want to take the risk. Meanwhile, as they are saying that, demand is more than ever with huge supply shortages.

So how many years have to go by before someone expands 22lr production, 10 years, 20, 30, 40.......

njl 02-18-2014 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Altitude (Post 21020155)
Someone has to do it eventually or supply will never meet demand. Knowing business today though (risk adverse) they will still be saying in 10 years what they are saying today, demand might go down we do not want to take the risk. Meanwhile, as they are saying that, demand is more than ever with huge supply shortages.

So how many years have to go by before someone expands 22lr production, 10 years, 20, 30, 40.......

I'm guessing they're betting demand will fall, and then they'd look really stupid if they spent millions to expand production, and by the time the expansion was ready to bring online, demand had fallen and now there's a surplus and they can't give the stuff away.

What steams me is that AFAIK, the same people camp out at WalMart and buy out all the bulk .22lr as it comes in, and then resell it at 100% markup. As long as they keep doing this, there will be no local cheap source of .22lr. If people would stop buying the resold Walmart ammo, eventually these resellers would run out of either places to store it or $ to buy it all up.

I think unless the shortage continues multiple years into the next Republican president, we won't see any new .22lr production facilities.

lakepop 02-18-2014 10:07

I was a tool maker for olin for 20 years in the 60 ts, at that time they were making 6 million a day. It's not something that would be that easy to do with out a lot of skilled people and a lot of money. They also had there own brass mill, to make the strip metal for the case.

Three-Five-Seven 02-18-2014 10:20

All those years, and years, and years of First Quality CCI .22 ammunition setting on dealers shelves with every customer saying "wow, that's too expensive for .22s".

All those piles of Blazers that were nine dollars for five hundred rounds that sat, and sat, and sat at Walmart because Walmart beat the crap out of the manufacturer on price.

All those years of experience and you want Speer to meet market conditions today?

You should have bought them when they were cheap and available.

Colorado4Wheel 02-18-2014 13:34

My cast 9mm loads cost the same or less then .22 ammo. So why even bother with .22 ammo is my thought.

Hoser 02-18-2014 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel (Post 21020856)
My cast 9mm loads cost the same or less then .22 ammo. So why even bother with .22 ammo is my thought.

Because shooting 22s is more fun than most everything I can think of.

Colorado4Wheel 02-18-2014 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoser (Post 21021083)
Because shooting 22s is more fun than most everything I can think of.

Your not thinking hard enough. ;)

PCJim 02-18-2014 21:35

I'd bet, that if you could sit in the board room of these companies, it wouldn't be the finances of starting up another line, or how much demand there would be in some given number of years. It would probably be a discussion on whether they could trust our elected legislators to not cave in to the "progressive camp" who want to remove every firearm at any chance they can get. THAT is probably the biggest uncertainty.

njl 02-18-2014 21:54

With the recent SCOTUS decisions on the right of the people to own firearms, I don't think any reasonable person would worry about a federal ban on firearms any time soon.

Oppressive taxes on ammo or bans on lead bullets might be more reasonable concerns.

Hoser 02-18-2014 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel (Post 21021642)
Your not thinking hard enough.

Hmmm. Nope. Even with my mind in the gutter, cant think of anything.

dkf 02-18-2014 23:08

In my industry we run into the same type of mentality. Practically no spare equipment or parts and run all out 24/7. Then when a machine is down the SHTF and they are pushing their vendors to get them up and running ASAP.


I wish the .22CCM would make a comeback with some factory rifles and pistols chambered in it.(and ammo) Hell I would even get my own rifle and/or pistol chambered in it just so I could get brass for it. Would be nice if Starline would pick it up. Cost to reload it would be very low if you cast the bullets.


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