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Keoking 02-02-2013 07:04

Question on LEO buying personal weapon
 
My BIL knows I have a safe full of pistols and wants one. He is not prohibited from owning a pistol, but he and his wife are dead broke after a couple of failed rounds of in vitro.
His wife is a Wakulla Sheriff's Deputy, so I suggested that she buy him a Glock with her LEO discount, and that I would give them the money.
Is there anything illegal about his wife buying him a gun if he is not prohibited from owning one?
If she uses a LEO discount, could this be a violation of her department policy?

md2lgyk 02-02-2013 07:14

I can't cite chapter and verse, but it is certainly legal to buy a gun as a gift for someone else. Department policy violation? Who knows. I used to get an LEO discount from certain places, but that's because I was an LEO, not because the discount was through the department.

jpa 02-02-2013 09:03

Definitely not illegal.

Maybe.

Probably against Glock's policy for the blue label guns. I doubt they're going to send the "Glock police" after her for buying a LE labeled gun for her husband but that's not the purpose of the discount.

SCSU74 02-02-2013 10:19

Why don't you just give him one and avoid the ordeal?


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Steve in PA 02-02-2013 10:21

Depends.

Instead of TX, let's pretend we are talking about PA.

I'm a LEO in PA and can use my clothing and equipment allowance to purchase a firearm, provided it is something I can use "on the job". In other words, I couldn't buy a hunting shotgun or a deer rifle, or something like a Ruger Super Redhawk.

I could buy a handgun that could be used for duty or off-duty use such as any of the Sig, Glock, S&W handguns, etc. The handgun is mine, even though I used by clothing & equipment allowance to buy it, just like a pair of boots, etc.

In PA, there is no transfer required between spouses, provided the other person is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm. So in theory, I could go out and get a Glock 26 since it could be used by me for off-duty or plain clothes duty. But my wife would be able to carry the Glock because she is my wife.

Would my department object? I've done nothing wrong. The handgun is "mine" not the departments and therefore I've broken no law by allowing my wife to carry it.

Of course, I could also pay the money out of my pocket, still getting the LEO discount and the above situation still applies. The Glock is "mine", but my wife would be 100% legal in carrying or using it.

DaBigBR 02-02-2013 11:29

The big thing to watch out for would be that said gun was purchased in store and transferred on 4473 or shipped to an FFL for transfer on 4473. The alternative would be having it sent to the agency on letterhead, and doing it that way would be an issue with the "for duty use" requirement when the gun is delivered that way.

Ranger1759 02-02-2013 14:19

I don't see the problem....she bought the gun, she owns the gun, her husband uses the gun....no need for any kind of transfer as she still owns the gun....it doesn't have to be a "gift" it's marital property....I think it would be the same as her using on of his deer rifles during deer season....it's still his, she is just borrowing it....

BULLRUNN 02-02-2013 16:44

Its Called a STRAW PURCHASE.. the ATF might have a thing or 2 to say to her about that....could cause her some problems with her command...

razdog76 02-02-2013 18:28

Husband and wife's property is all mutually owned. If they were to (God forbid) get a divorce and go their separate ways, anything one party says belongs to them could be contested by the other party.

Glock's pricing is their own doing. They also extend the discounted guns to firefighters etc... They have to be able to account for discounting some of their merchandise, hence various color labels for easy sorting in the warehouse.

A straw purchase would be one where the purchaser is going to sell the firearm to someone they know cannot legally acquire one.

If it is a personally own firearm, purchased from an FFL holder, the purchaser WILL have to fill out the ATF form, and have a background check.

Have you priced ammo lately? Anymore, the gun seems like the cheapest part. :supergrin:

DaBigBR 02-02-2013 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by BULLRUNN (Post 19941895)
Its Called a STRAW PURCHASE.. the ATF might have a thing or 2 to say to her about that....could cause her some problems with her command...

Incorrect.

There is nothing wrong with purchasing a firearm to gift it to somebody else who can legally receive the firearm.

Illegal Straw Purchase Media Campaign Website:

http://www.dontlie.org/

ATF Training Video on the Topic:

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms...swf/toon4.html

(Transcript: http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms...episode-4.html)

Steve in PA 02-02-2013 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by BULLRUNN (Post 19941895)
Its Called a STRAW PURCHASE.. the ATF might have a thing or 2 to say to her about that....could cause her some problems with her command...

Wrong x2.

spcwes 02-03-2013 10:04

If she purchases it under letterhead which is what I think he is referring to it is for duty use only by the officer. An individual officer purchase is always done under letterhead which requires a superior officer to sign off on stating the the officer will use it for duty and if it is shipped directly to the department that the ranking officer has conducted a background check on the officer. You can not specifically use this method to buy a family member a weapon.

That being said, you can however buy the weapon, carry it on duty one day in a duty, off duty, back up or what ever other method you need to meet the stipulations of the individual officer purchase and then you are clear to do what ever legal things you want to do with the weapon.

The individual officer program only applies to states that allow the weapons/magazine capacity and if you can own it you can do this.

AZson 02-03-2013 11:36

This brings up a similar well published situation that happened here in AZ, somebody from out of state paid another person from out of state to travel here and buy a gun, but yet neither was arrested. So in this instant I would say it is legal. But then the person that financed it seems to be above the law

walkin' trails 02-03-2013 11:45

It may tecnically legal, but it is not something I would do as an LEO. I would be concerned about any civil issues that may arise if something bad happened to the pistol, and my name was going to be all over it. There are legitimate reasons for officers to sell personally owned firearms, but I'd opt to do it through an FFL. I have had people I knew ask me to buy them a blue label gun, and I have declined because do not need any legal liability problems, real or imagined.

Ranger1759 02-03-2013 12:31

I still don't see a problem....I recently bought a G27 at my LGS....all I needed was my dept ID and was able to buy a blue label with no problems....now I do carry that on/off duty, but it's mine, not the dept....if I wanted my wife to carry it, there would be no problem, because its mine...and like I said earlier, it's also marital property....

Keoking 02-03-2013 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger1759 (Post 19944758)
I still don't see a problem....I recently bought a G27 at my LGS....all I needed was my dept ID and was able to buy a blue label with no problems....now I do carry that on/off duty, but it's mine, not the dept....if I wanted my wife to carry it, there would be no problem, because its mine...and like I said earlier, it's also marital property....

This is pretty much what I was thinking about. She would buy it more or less as a private citizen who is able to use the LEO discount. No department involvement (unless there is a policy prohibiting this).

spcwes 02-03-2013 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger1759 (Post 19944758)
I still don't see a problem....I recently bought a G27 at my LGS....all I needed was my dept ID and was able to buy a blue label with no problems....now I do carry that on/off duty, but it's mine, not the dept....if I wanted my wife to carry it, there would be no problem, because its mine...and like I said earlier, it's also marital property....

That is different from buying a weapon under individual officer purchase paperwork through an agency. You still own the weapon going this route but you are sold the weapon without taxes and at a reduced rate with the signed intent you are going to keep it and use it for duty. Buying it from a LSG with police id is the same as you buying it without.

msu_grad_121 02-03-2013 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by spcwes (Post 19944902)
That is different from buying a weapon under individual officer purchase paperwork through an agency. You still own the weapon going this route but you are sold the weapon without taxes and at a reduced rate with the signed intent you are going to keep it and use it for duty. Buying it from a LSG with police id is the same as you buying it without.

I've got to be honest with you, I think you're wrong here. I've bought a few blue label guns in my time. Never did I go through the department, as they were individual officer purchases. Obviously the price for these is higher than it would be for a department purchase, but the only thing I needed to present was my department ID. They took a copy of the ID, and bingo, my own personally owned blue label Glock.

I would say as long as there is no specific policy against this sort of thing, and as long as he's allowed to legally own a pistol, I doubt there's anything wrong with it, or that she would get in any sort of trouble. That's just my interpretation of it, though.

DISCO SON 02-03-2013 14:19

You don't need a Dept. letterhead to buy a weapon from Glock or S&W under LEO discount. You need to find a dealer who is either a LEO dealer for Glock or S&W, they copy your Dept. ID and you purchase the weapon.

I've purchased many a glock and S&W under those terms, never have had to get a Dept. letterhead.

If you call glock or S&W, they will give you their closest LEO dealer to you.

Good Luck,

Disco Son

spcwes 02-03-2013 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by msu_grad_121 (Post 19945048)
I've got to be honest with you, I think you're wrong here. I've bought a few blue label guns in my time. Never did I go through the department, as they were individual officer purchases. Obviously the price for these is higher than it would be for a department purchase, but the only thing I needed to present was my department ID. They took a copy of the ID, and bingo, my own personally owned blue label Glock.

I would say as long as there is no specific policy against this sort of thing, and as long as he's allowed to legally own a pistol, I doubt there's anything wrong with it, or that she would get in any sort of trouble. That's just my interpretation of it, though.

Again different than what I am talking about. Trust me I sign the paperwork for the officers. If I was at the office I would copy paste the paperwork on here so you could see how it is worded. That being said our dealer for the weapons we purchase is in a different state so we can't go to the dealer to purchase.

The way we do this is fill out paperwork that states you intend to purchase the weapon for duty use and not for someone else or with intent to sell. You then describe the weapon you intend to purchase and sign the document and send it to the ranking officer that can sign the form for the Chief/Sheriff or the Chief/Sheriff and then the paperwork is mailed to the LE dealer. The dealer processes the paperwork and then contacts the officer directly for payment.

This is the same process for our agency from 3 different suppliers and is NOT in our policy. We have policy on what can be carried and qualification but not how the weapons are purchased.

The process has also been the same for me with every agency I have worked with just different letterhead. The letterhead gives you a tax free purchase with 3 standard capacity magazines for about $395 on a Glock gen 3 or 4. Again, I never have walked into a LE distributor and purchased so can't speak on that.

Edited to add: The paperwork is universal for agency and officer purchases from most companies. GT Distributors has the paperwork in generic template on their website for instance. You copy past that onto letterhead and fill out the info they request. And I am not saying this is THE way you have to complete this process. It is how we do it and I would imagine many others as well.

spcwes 02-03-2013 14:39

This is the format we use for individual officer purchases as do any that want to purchase from GT. I have no idea how it works when you walk into GT. This is a copy paste directly from www.gtdist.com and is the exact format you put onto agency letterhead.



I. I, ______________________#______, an Officer with _________________,
(Full name of officer) (Dept ID#) (Dept. Name)
am authorized to purchase the following weapon to be used in the

performance of my official duties. I certify under penalty of perjury

that the firearm is not being purchased for personal use or for the

purposes of transfer or resale.


Exact Firearm Description

_____________________ _________ ________ _____________________
(Firearm Make) (Model #) (Caliber) (officer contact ph#)


II. I, ____________________________, herby certify that the above named
(Full name of supervisor)
law enforcement officer is currently employed with the _______________,
(Dept. Name)
and the firearm being purchased will be used by the officer in the

performance of official duties.

I further certify that a records check has been conducted on the

law enforcement officer who is purchasing the firearm and reveals no

convictions for misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence.



___________________________ ___________________________
(Signature of Supervisor) (Name of officer requesting purchase)

___________________________ ___________________________
(Name of Supervisor) (Date)

___________________________ ___________________________
(Department Address) (Supervisor's Office Phone #)

Ranger1759 02-03-2013 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by spcwes (Post 19944902)
That is different from buying a weapon under individual officer purchase paperwork through an agency. You still own the weapon going this route but you are sold the weapon without taxes and at a reduced rate with the signed intent you are going to keep it and use it for duty. Buying it from a LSG with police id is the same as you buying it without.

When I bought the G27, with ID, I got it tax free and at a reduced rate....I think it was more then 100+ difference in price had I not used dept ID....

I bought it on 6/6/12 and paid 429.99 out the door....just looked at the receipt....blue label and all...

spcwes 02-03-2013 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger1759 (Post 19945248)
When I bought the G27, with ID, I got it tax free and at a reduced rate....I think it was more then 100+ difference in price had I not used dept ID....

If you purchased it by walking into a gun shop and got that deal they are a licensed law enforcement distributor or they can't sell them that cheap without losing money.

We do not have a local place to walk into as I have said above and must use the format posted above to purchase duty weapons individually. The dealer prices on Glocks are more than what they sell them to LEO for. Meaning you can't get a Glock for $395 bucks with 3 standard capacity mags without them being a LE dealer.

I do not know how it works on a walk in basis as I have said numerous times. We order and the forms that our firearm distributors use almost exactly what is posted above. That is an individual officer purchase form for firearms.

Patchman 02-03-2013 14:54

When you're purchasing a Blue Label Glock via an agency letterhead, it's sales tax exempt. (Seems like you can also order it from an out-of-state dealer). With the letterhead, you're limited to purchasing the exact model and caliber approved by the agency (or at least specified in the letter that somebody is willing to sign off on).

When you're purchasing a Blue Label Glock without an agency letterhead, you have to pay the sales tax. And you can purchase any model or caliber you want. Say your agency only approves G22s. Without a letterhead, you can purchase Blue Label G19 or G36 or whatever, knowing full well the gun would never be approved for duty use.

Who can buy a Blue Label Glock? Glock Inc has a list of some 20 (?) occupations that are elibigle to purchase Blue Label Glocks. I think even being a member of the Glock NSSF lets you to buy one. It's definitely not limited to just LE.

And to be able to get the "LE price", you'd have to go to a LGS that has such a program set up with Glock Inc. (AKA "LE Dealer").

DaBigBR 02-03-2013 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by spcwes (Post 19944149)
If she purchases it under letterhead which is what I think he is referring to it is for duty use only by the officer. An individual officer purchase is always done under letterhead which requires a superior officer to sign off on stating the the officer will use it for duty and if it is shipped directly to the department that the ranking officer has conducted a background check on the officer. You can not specifically use this method to buy a family member a weapon.

That being said, you can however buy the weapon, carry it on duty one day in a duty, off duty, back up or what ever other method you need to meet the stipulations of the individual officer purchase and then you are clear to do what ever legal things you want to do with the weapon.

The individual officer program only applies to states that allow the weapons/magazine capacity and if you can own it you can do this.

Also incorrect. Glock makes the "blue label" pricing available at specific dealers. Those dealers can sell FTF or ship to another FFL to complete the transfer. Showing credentials to that dealer to prove eligibility for the pricing is different than a CLEO signed letter stating that the gun is for duty use. The letter is used to have the gun shipped directly to the agency, therefore bypassing the FFL/4473 requirement.


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