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-   -   Thoughts on 10mm for sd/hd (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1463832)

vandros 01-11-2013 14:45

Thoughts on 10mm for sd/hd
 
Costs of ammo, great stopping power, and harder recoil aside, how good of an idea is it to use real (i.e., not underpowered) 10mm for hd/sd? I'm particularly concerned about overpenetration, since I'm in a highly-populated urban area. I think the caliber is great for hiking/hunting type situations, but not sure how I feel about hd/sd. Thanks for advice and thoughts...

cfrye11 01-11-2013 14:56

Shoot what ever feel right to you. So if you want to get a 10mm do it. If you want to carry a baseball bat do it. Is over penetration an issue ? Who really knows. No one can tell you that if you hit "x" with a 9mm its going to stop but if you hit "x" with a 10mm its going to keep going.

molan labe

OctoberRust 01-11-2013 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandros (Post 19849743)
Costs of ammo, great stopping power, and harder recoil aside, how good of an idea is it to use real (i.e., not underpowered) 10mm for hd/sd? I'm particularly concerned about overpenetration, since I'm in a highly-populated urban area. I think the caliber is great for hiking/hunting type situations, but not sure how I feel about hd/sd. Thanks for advice and thoughts...


heavily populated area? 18 inch barreled shotgun with #4 buckshot. Or some sort of carbine that shoots 5.56.


Edit - sorry didn't see the SD part. If you're out and about, even hiking in most situations I'd still fear 2 legged critters more than some monstrosity of an animal attacking me unprovoked. Just me though, so I'd go with my standard G19. ymmv

cowboy1964 01-11-2013 15:23

One problem is premium SD ammo is much rarer with 10mm. The old Silvertips are still about the best you can do, unless you want to go with boutique ammo like Underwood or Buffalo Bore or Double Tap, and I believe the latter ones are better for hunting than for human predators.

dougader 01-11-2013 15:27

Ammo is generally more $$, but you can order online (for now) and you can also get rounds that are not loaded to the redline for HD/SD. I always thought the Winchester Silvertip 175 grain load was a keeper.

But unless you hunt, or also use it for a woods carry gun, I'd just stay with the 45 auto.

My G21sf goes from 45 auto to 45 Super in about one minute with a barrel and recoil guide rod spring switch. Now 45 Super is mostly a handload affair, or specialty buy from Buffalo Bore, so it's more expensive, generally, than 10mm... but I like the fact that I can use the 21sf for HD with the stock barrel/recoil spring and my Federal 230 grain HST's, and then swtich it out to 45 Super handloads with a 265 grain WFNGC slug for a hike in the woods or a fishing trip up the Clackamas river.

digilo 01-11-2013 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougader (Post 19849917)
Ammo is generally more $$, but you can order online (for now) and you can also get rounds that are not loaded to the redline for HD/SD. I always thought the Winchester Silvertip 175 grain load was a keeper.

But unless you hunt, or also use it for a woods carry gun, I'd just stay with the 45 auto.

My G21sf goes from 45 auto to 45 Super in about one minute with a barrel and recoil guide rod spring switch. Now 45 Super is mostly a handload affair, or specialty buy from Buffalo Bore, so it's more expensive, generally, than 10mm... but I like the fact that I can use the 21sf for HD with the stock barrel/recoil spring and my Federal 230 grain HST's, and then swtich it out to 45 Super handloads with a 265 grain WFNGC slug for a hike in the woods or a fishing trip up the Clackamas river.

Agree with all of this, plus, the 21 accepts a conversion barrel to shoot 10mm.

oldman11 01-11-2013 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfrye11 (Post 19849786)
Shoot what ever feel right to you. So if you want to get a 10mm do it. If you want to carry a baseball bat do it. Is over penetration an issue ? Who really knows. No one can tell you that if you hit "x" with a 9mm its going to stop but if you hit "x" with a 10mm its going to keep going.

molan labe

Over penetration was something the anti gunners started bringing up in the late 60's. It was mostly so their pimp lawyers could charge someone from defending himself against intruders. Unfortunately it will stay with us for a long time.

ScottieG59 01-11-2013 17:02

I have a Glock 20 that is sometimes my defense gun. The primary magazine and the one in the chamber is only slightly hotter than a 40 S&W (Critical Defense 165 grain). The second magazine contains hot Buffalo Bore hollow points. My thought is that if the first 16 rounds were not enough, the next 15 should have more bite.

vandros 01-11-2013 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottieG59 (Post 19850312)
The primary magazine and the one in the chamber is only slightly hotter than a 40 S&W (Critical Defense 165 grain). The second magazine contains hot Buffalo Bore hollow points. My thought is that if the first 16 rounds were not enough, the next 15 should have more bite.

I wonder if mixing loads (stronger and weaker) might create reliability issues in operation of the weapon? I'm talking ejection and double-feed issues (especially, if you are not swapping the recoil spring) and differences in felt recoil. What was your experience with these issues?

fredj338 01-11-2013 17:40

Because of the shortage of good SD ammo & guns, the 10mm would probably not be my 1st choice. I would certainly have no issue carry my Delta but the same gun in 45acp is just as good for SD/HD, easier to shoot & a lot ofammo choices. If I patroled the woods as a LEO, then the 10mm makes a lot of sense. Of course then you don't have to worry about ammo cost or selection.
IMO, over penetration should not be dismissed, but more important is can you deliver ALL your shots w/o a miss. A miss will be far more dangerous than overpenetration.

Tiro Fijo 01-11-2013 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338 (Post 19850449)
Because of the shortage of good SD ammo & guns, the 10mm would probably not be my 1st choice...

True, but just as with the last great "Panic" the lesser known/used cals. always seem to available in the gun shops. While nary a 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP or 5.56 can be found I see tons of .357 SIG & 10mm ammo. I was in a store the other day that had enough 10mm to nuke a small country.
:shocked:

gunowner1 01-11-2013 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo (Post 19851343)
True, but just as with the last great "Panic" the lesser known/used cals. always seem to available in the gun shops. While nary a 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP or 5.56 can be found I see tons of .357 SIG & 10mm ammo. I was in a store the other day that had enough 10mm to nuke a small country.
:shocked:

Enough 10mm to nuke a small country? That only takes a box of 20!

Just_Me 01-11-2013 21:21

I love my 10mm m20sf. I won't leave home without it during hunting season.

People I carry 40 or 45, but when bears or boars enter in the picture I go 10 and either my loads or double tap.

dkf 01-11-2013 21:55

If you are concerned about over penetration you could buy some of those watered down Hornady Critical Defense rounds that are sold exclusively at Cabelas. I am not a fan of the Critical Defense and it is expensive but for what you want to do it would work ok for.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoot...3Bcat104372280

orangeride 01-11-2013 22:21

Look man, get the 10mm and stoke it with the hot stuff from underwood. Almost all the stuff I've read and gelatin tests on utube show that hot 10mm generally penetrate less than a 40 because most 10mm loads are really shooting bullets for 40 speeds. You would think higher vel = more Penetration but its not. Extra vel normally over expands bullet causing less pen. Unless the pedals brake off. Check out the vid on utube where the guy shoots a cow heart in gel with a 135gr 10mm. Huge hole. Looked like a rifle shot. And if 10mm gets hard to find put 40 in it.

fredj338 01-12-2013 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkf (Post 19851610)
If you are concerned about over penetration you could buy some of those watered down Hornady Critical Defense rounds that are sold exclusively at Cabelas. I am not a fan of the Critical Defense and it is expensive but for what you want to do it would work ok for.
]

Well then you might as well carry a smaller/lighter 40.:dunno:

4TS&W 01-12-2013 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunowner1 (Post 19851411)
Enough 10mm to nuke a small country? That only takes a box of 20!

That would nuke a large country. A small country would be nuked with a near miss by only one... :cool:

SDGlock23 01-12-2013 06:55

Generally I would advise passing on the 10mm, not because it's overkill, but because you're going to be stuck with something you don't shoot much and costs a lot to feed. I would however recommend something like a Glock 21 or any of the .40 cal models, as I don't think you would see any real advantage using the 10mm.

hunter won 01-12-2013 07:14

The 135 grain in 10 mm should be an excellent man stopper. The early use of 135 grain in 40 S&W was getting one shot stops. The problem was the bullet would fragment upon impact. The newer loads from Underwood has a Gold Dot in 155 grain that I would use for personal protection.

rustytxrx 01-12-2013 19:33

I have two g20s. If I do carry one I have a 10 round magazine for carry. If I can't get out of trouble with 10 + 1 I don't think 16 + 1 would help. I think 10 round magazine would be easier to explain in court. I am not sure how easy the 10mm would be to explain. I could be thought of as an aggressor caliber, someone looking for a fight.

I personally stick to the 38 special 120gr +p. it makes sense to a defense attorney and a prosecuting attorney. If you are going to carry you should thank about both sides of defense.

Rusty

digilo 01-12-2013 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustytxrx (Post 19855392)
I think 10 round magazine would be easier to explain in court. I am not sure how easy the 10mm would be to explain. I could be thought of as an aggressor caliber, someone looking for a fight.

Rusty

It's a handgun, not a death ray, and there's no law against carrying a 10mm handgun.

Quote:

I personally stick to the 38 special 120gr +p. it makes sense to a defense attorney and a prosecuting attorney. If you are going to carry you should thank about both sides of defense.
If you're going to give advice don't spread misinformation. Carrying a smaller caliber doesn't make you a safe person. Quit spreading fear and misinformation.

rustytxrx 01-13-2013 08:14

Digilo, in Texas if you use your carry gun, you have just committed murder or at least attempted murder. You will have to defend yourself to the legal system.

So many people just think of one side of this issue. I can tell you from personal experience, you should give both sides of carry some thought. When you pull the trigger you are in trouble.

If you think I am tring to scare someone, you are wrong. I am tring to make them think. I have been there and I can tell you it is scary.

Rusty

uz2bUSMC 01-13-2013 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustytxrx (Post 19857005)
Digilo, in Texas if you use your carry gun, you have just committed murder or at least attempted murder. You will have to defend yourself to the legal system.

So many people just think of one side of this issue. I can tell you from personal experience, you should give both sides of carry some thought. When you pull the trigger you are in trouble.

If you think I am tring to scare someone, you are wrong. I am tring to make them think. I have been there and I can tell you it is scary.

Rusty

I've thought about both sides of the story, 10mm is my choice. Compromising myself for fear of litigation is not something I am willing to do. When people think of both sides they often fast forward to the after where they might be in trouble. You have to survive your encounter before you can worry about being in trouble. There is nothing wrong with a 10mm with standard capacity magazines. Do everything right when you carry, use your tool for defense when deadly force is appropriate and lesser means have failed or can not reasonably be employed. A good shoot is a good shoot regardless of your weapon...same goes for a bad shoot.

vandros 01-13-2013 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustytxrx (Post 19855392)
I have two g20s. If I do carry one I have a 10 round magazine for carry. If I can't get out of trouble with 10 + 1 I don't think 16 + 1 would help. I think 10 round magazine would be easier to explain in court. I am not sure how easy the 10mm would be to explain. I could be thought of as an aggressor caliber, someone looking for a fight.

I personally stick to the 38 special 120gr +p. it makes sense to a defense attorney and a prosecuting attorney. If you are going to carry you should thank about both sides of defense.

Rusty

I think this makes perfect sense to keep these issues in mind, especially in our imperfect legal system.

My primary reason for owning my glock29 is protection against large animals when I'm hiking in black bear/mountain lion country. But, I intend to keep using the same weapon for sd/hd because I can't afford another weapon, and, more importantly, I want to get used to and be proficient with one gun. The logic behind this I think is clear (to me, as well as many other responsible gun owners here). Not sure if the logic would be as clear to 12 jurors, attorney for the victim, and prosecutor - if it ever comes to that.

oldman11 01-13-2013 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustytxrx (Post 19857005)
Digilo, in Texas if you use your carry gun, you have just committed murder or at least attempted murder. You will have to defend yourself to the legal system.

So many people just think of one side of this issue. I can tell you from personal experience, you should give both sides of carry some thought. When you pull the trigger you are in trouble.

If you think I am tring to scare someone, you are wrong. I am tring to make them think. I have been there and I can tell you it is scary.

Rusty

Murder: The unlawful killing of human being by another person with hostile intent. Notice the word "unlawful". Protecting yourself or your family is not unlawful. Admittedly there will probably be some shyster lawyer trying to make a name for himself.


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