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-   -   barrel anti-friction treatments- any experiences? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1459455)

digilo 12-22-2012 17:35

barrel bore treatments- any experiences?
 
Has anyone any experience with treating the bores of gun barrels with a dry lube, like moly or WS2, that embeds into the metal? I've read of moly coating bullets, but what about doing the inside of the barrel?

cciman 12-22-2012 22:39

What's the goal?

I don't see a point to "lubing" the inside of the barrel, besides, any surface application will not last.

digilo 12-23-2012 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cciman (Post 19769543)
What's the goal?

I don't see a point to "lubing" the inside of the barrel, besides, any surface application will not last.

So you don't have any experience with them.

Thanks for opining.

blastfact 12-23-2012 12:39

I've never used any of the so called wonder embedding type lubes in a firearm of any sort. Reason why. They honestly don't work in the industrial world. If they did work we would see a major advancement of man kind and the eco-greenies would be in heaven.

The best one can do is slug out the barrel and plug and pour the chamber. Know exactly what you have. If you have a tight spot in your oem bore lap it out. <<< But tight spots in even oem barrels is almost a thing of the past. One can put a very light lapping on almost all new barrels and a very tube. Followed with a ever so slight polishing done with patches and your choice of polishing material. I keep a bottle of Rem 40-X around for just such usage.

Care must be taken or you can ruin a barrel. If done right you end up with a great shooting tube. And cleaning of the barrel is much much easier after a day of shooting. :)

digilo 12-23-2012 14:06

I've been using WS2, tungsten disulfide, also known as DANZAC, on different things- the contact parts of my guns, etc. It embeds much like moly. I've read a little about people treating barrel bores with DANZAC, and wondered if anyone here has any experience treating bores with moly or DANZAC, specifically the Glock barrels with their polygonal rifling.

Paul53 12-24-2012 11:26

Sounds like a good subject for a field test if somebody has a chrono. Speed before and after? Or am I missing the point of the treatments?

cciman 12-24-2012 20:36

Doing a quick google on DANZAC, I see that there is plenty of hits with it as a bullet lube-- though it seems the objective data (benefits) are not as easy to pin down, probably best for that rifle shooter looking for that extra .05 MOA in their mind.
Also seems that it is not an easy process to apply correctly.

If you go to the additives corner of the auto parts store, you will see plenty of lubes, some using "space age nano molecular technology" -- unless there is a worldwide conspiracy, I doubt any of these truly hold up to claims.

If you shoot a Glock with a stock barrel, the barrel has been nitrited-- ie already surface treated, so the dry lubricity of the barrel is already maxed, in addition to the polygonal rifling.

Good luck, let us know if you've discovered the next best thing. I'd be interested in seeing a good test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul53 (Post 19775140)
Sounds like a good subject for a field test if somebody has a chrono. Speed before and after? Or am I missing the point of the treatments?


digilo 12-24-2012 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul53 (Post 19775140)
Sounds like a good subject for a field test if somebody has a chrono. Speed before and after? Or am I missing the point of the treatments?

There may be a small increase in speed, but that isn't the only potential benefit.
---
cciman, I don't know what post you are referring to, but I have zero interest in coating bullets- thats not what this thread is about. Also, most shooters are getting away from moly coating bullets after tales of destroyed barrels got around.

hint: there's better places than auto parts stores to buy lubes. I retired from a Mobil Blending and Packaging plant, I know a bit about lubes.

And the barrel being "nitrited" (nitrided?) does not max lubricity. Where are you getting all this? Nitriding makes it harder, but does not "max out" dry lubricity.

Again, if anyone has any experience with these types of bore treatments, I'd like to hear about it.

cciman 12-25-2012 14:48

It seems you are leading the field on this one.
Stop teasing us with this mystery, what do you think the potential benefits could be for the barrel?

How are you applying this WS2 to the barrel, how long does it stay treated?

I see that it comes in a high temp grease form...I might be interested in using for my brake retainer pins. Alternatively, adding a small amount of powder into the crankcase of my racecar...hmm. Only problem is how much passes through the filter and whether it completely clogs the filter, or reduces flow...nah.

Here ares some marketed benefits of nitriding (thanks for the correction):http://www.ahtweb.com/content.php?id=15&t=%3Ca_name=

digilo 12-25-2012 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by cciman (Post 19779231)
It seems you are leading the field on this one.
Stop teasing us with this mystery, what do you think the potential benefits could be for the barrel?

How are you applying this WS2 to the barrel, how long does it stay treated?

I see that it comes in a high temp grease form...I might be interested in using for my brake retainer pins. Alternatively, adding a small amount of powder into the crankcase of my racecar...hmm. Only problem is how much passes through the filter and whether it completely clogs the filter, or reduces flow...nah.

:D

I ain't teasin'. :D I've used WS2 for a while on different things, and was wondering if anyone had experience on coating Glock bores with it.

The WS2 gets applied to a gun bore by suspending it in alcohol, and wetting the bore, and letting the alcohol evaporate. Then, if I read right, it is burnished in by one of several means, usually a rod and patch, and then by firing. Aside from (maybe) a small increase in velocity, it could make the bore easier to clean, and make it less susceptible to heat from the friction of the bullets, resulting in a cooler barrel. Again, these are things I have read, and am looking for experiences with the polygonal barrels. It works with rifle barrels. I can't remember the exact Google search phrase, it may have been "bore treat ws2" or something like that. I do know that I read that shooters got away from moly-coating bullets because the moly will form rings in the bore, and can cause a stuck bullet, or bulge the barrel, and there were stories of people ruining barrels with moly-coated bullets. Coating the bore directly seems to address the ring problem.

as for the car...

Man I wish I had this stuff when I was building motors. For grease, mix it with a good synthetic grease. I have some from the Mobil B&P I worked at, it was a grease made for NASA, hi-temp synthetic stuff, but any good synthetic grease + a little of the WS2 works. I used it when I rebuilt the front end on my '99 Ranger, the front axles and bearings. I drained a pint of lube from the rearend, mixed some WS2 powder with a pint or so of fresh gear lube, and poured it in. I saw a big difference just doing the rearend- 3 months later I got around to the front, and saw another difference. And I put some in the motor. This stuff is extremely fine, it embeds like molybdenum but is finer, and so you can imagine the particle size- so as far as oil filters, I haven't seen evidence of a problem- no drop in oil pressure. I run Mobil 1 synthetic and regular Fram filters, I change the filter about every 3000 miles or so, and the oil at around 10,000. It's a '99 3.0 V6, and it runs like new.

{Yes, you can go 10k on synthetic, at least with Mobil 1. Lisa M., senior lab tester at the Bmt B&P, tested some oil with various mileages, and Mobil 1 with 10,000 miles on it passed spec for new oil. Now, I have now way of proving this, and this is the Internet, land of BS, but it's the truth. }

cciman 12-26-2012 18:37

Personally, I think it ?might? makes for match rifle barrels, but way to much work for the amount of payback for a general use pistol. Quick test would be to do this on a rifle barrel: take a baseline temp of the barrel surface, fire 10 or 15 round groups x5- take a temp after each group.
Same gun, clean and treat barrel, repeat test-- see if there is a temperature behavior difference, overall, or slope of change. Truly if there was a reduction in barrel "friction", you can see the results immediately. If the numbers prove worthwhile, then go to chrono.

Race engine, that is a different story-- I'm seriously considering this for my LS engine, my only concern is clumping, and dispersion, ie caking into a corner or galley crevice, or blocking oil flow somewhere- which I think was a problem with teflon additives. I am already running Mobil1 15w50. Certainly the paste I can use on the brake pins.

Dissolving the powder into a volatile liquid (hydrophobic is best) before pouring into the crankcase (to get it into the oil) is a great idea. Now what volatile liquid won't react or breakdown the engine oil?

digilo 12-26-2012 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by cciman (Post 19783183)
Race engine, that is a different story-- I'm seriously considering this for my LS engine, my only concern is clumping, and dispersion, ie caking into a corner or galley crevice, or blocking oil flow somewhere- which I think was a problem with teflon additives. I am already running Mobil1 15w50. Certainly the paste I can use on the brake pins.

Dissolving the powder into a volatile liquid (hydrophobic is best) before pouring into the crankcase (to get it into the oil) is a great idea. Now what volatile liquid won't react or breakdown the engine oil?

I dissolved about 1/2 ounce of the powder into a half quart or so of Mobil 1 5w30 that had sat in the sun for a while. It wasn't perfect, but I've had no problems.
A cam lifter is probably the engine component with the tightest tolerances, and none of my lifters have shown any problems- there have been no symptoms of any problems since I did the engine early this year.

Jim Watson 12-26-2012 20:01

Sounds like you are the guy with the stuff and some experience.
You run the tests and let us know how it works out.

I bought the display sample of an Otis bore treatment at SHOT but before I got round to it, the house burned down on it. I saw the scorched package in a crate of salvage the other day, I'll see if it looks usable. But they don't list it any more so even if it works, we are no farther ahead. And it is snake oil, they don't give actual constituents.

cciman 01-23-2013 09:58

I was intrigued by this topic,
So I got my hands on some WS2 dry powder (0.6 particle size fss), as well as some grease. Not the cheapest stuff, but a little should go a long way.

Tried rubbing it dry on some 1911 contact parts and components: acts similarly like you would expect graphite powder to do if you were to rub it onto something. Very fine, light grey sheen. Not sure how permanent it is, since, if you can rub it on, it will rub off over time. Can't really tell the difference vs. a wet lube.

Mixed a few ounces in 0.5 L motor oil and disperses very well, makes the oil ink black, stays dispersed over a few days, flows with the oil. Poured it into the top of my daily driver-- drove it a few days, checked the dipstick-- I can't tell looking at the dipstick that this black stuff was poured in (ie looks like normal dipstick dip, clear oil on it).

So from a macro basis, nothing. Without doing some more scientific measures and endpoints, so far no worthwhile advantage or disadvantage.

Next is the race engine...

digilo 01-27-2013 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cciman (Post 19900938)

Tried rubbing it dry on some 1911 contact parts and components: acts similarly like you would expect graphite powder to do if you were to rub it onto something. Very fine, light grey sheen. Not sure how permanent it is, since, if you can rub it on, it will rub off over time. Can't really tell the difference vs. a wet lube.
.

If you don't apply it correctly, no, it won't stay on.

Specialized 01-27-2013 16:19

Another substance you could try, both inside and outside of the barrel, is Boeing BoeShield T-9. This stuff is slippery like snot on a glass doorknob, and it'll last for years.BoeShield was formulated to coat metals in aircraft so that they wouldn't require additional treatment and wouldn't ever rust, and has a life of 15-20 years. I've used it on many things from guns, to woodworking tools and machines, to outdoor steel targets, etc. It's available in small cans and doesn't cost very much. Be sure to use the cleaner for it first, it removes all foreign particles and rust and prepares the surface well, but doesn't touch the metal. And I think I'd break in the barrel first before treating it. Hope this helps -- good luck!

cciman 01-27-2013 17:40

T-9 Kinda sounds like the WD40 for Boeing.
http://wd40.com/about-us/history/

"Convair, an aerospace contractor, first used WD-40 to protect the outer skin of the Atlas Missile from rust and corrosion. The product actually worked so well that several employees snuck some WD-40 cans out of the plant to use at home."

I think I will stick to my leftover motor oil for guns, which is overkill to begin with, and play with these lubes elsewhere.

SiGlockBoy 02-06-2013 11:13

What is your opinion of Sentry Tuff Glide? Is this similar to what you are using?

I have used it for years on pistols and rifles after seeing what it accomplished for dirt, sand and after cleaning. Things just don't stick to it at all. Cleaning can be as easy as wiping it down to remove fouling. Sand and dirt just fall off with a tap.

I have seen with my own guns, that when applied, the slide operates like it has bearings rolling it back and forth. I'm not saying they were grinding before but it is a noticeable difference.

I've also not had any rust on blued guns after treating with it either. Keeps the noises out of the recoil assemblies on Glocks too.

digilo 02-07-2013 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiGlockBoy (Post 19955608)
What is your opinion of Sentry Tuff Glide? Is this similar to what you are using?

I have used it for years on pistols and rifles after seeing what it accomplished for dirt, sand and after cleaning. Things just don't stick to it at all. Cleaning can be as easy as wiping it down to remove fouling. Sand and dirt just fall off with a tap.

I have seen with my own guns, that when applied, the slide operates like it has bearings rolling it back and forth. I'm not saying they were grinding before but it is a noticeable difference.

I've also not had any rust on blued guns after treating with it either. Keeps the noises out of the recoil assemblies on Glocks too.

I haven't tried it but your post makes me curious.

*off to read*

Arc Angel 02-09-2013 09:57

I don't own a gun barrel that is not coated with Sentry Solutions, 'Smooth-Kote' PASSIVATED (minimally hygroscopic) molybdenum disulfide solution. Clean up is amazingly fast; and, while I do not own a chronograph, myself and several of my friends, all, think that my bullets seem to go a little bit faster and hit a little bit harder, too. (I don't know; but it seems and feels that way.) Personally I wouldn't be without a bottle of, 'Smooth-Kote'. I really like it.


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