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-   -   Best 10mm vs. vest? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1459341)

G29SFWTF 12-22-2012 07:33

Best 10mm vs. vest?
 
I know that a 10mm won't penetrate level 3a Kevlar but which round would hurt the most?

220gr hardcast because it is the heaviest?

Or 155 TMJ because it has the most muzzle energy and won't deform as easily on the vest surface. Or something else?

There have been at least 3 shootings where the BG had armor. Tyler Texas, the CO theater, and Newtown. I have started carrying my rounds staggered in the mag, half 155gr XTP and half 155gr TMJ so if the need ever arises I would have some rounds that might punch deep into a vest and at least buy some time

(carrying Underwood ammo in a G29.)

cowboywannabe 12-22-2012 07:43

the one that delivers the most energy.

also the nutbags in colorado and conn. did not have ballistic body armor on.

captaintrips 12-22-2012 08:49

I know there are a TON of variables involved and every situation in different....but would a hot round from a 10mm have the potential to inflict enough pain/injury to stop an attacker?

Put another way, if one shot an attacker at 10 feet COM with a Underwood 155 TMJ would it break bones? Or just leave a nasty bruise for later?

cowboywannabe 12-22-2012 09:15

you can not count on pain as method for stopping an attacker. the only things that works are involuntary actions.

for instance, if an attacker is on PCP pain will not stop them because they dont feel it, if their legs are broken they cant walk, though they will still try.

Opie 1 Kenopie 12-22-2012 09:30

Solution... Head shot. :dunno:

G29SFWTF 12-22-2012 09:52

Shooting someone in the head who doesn't want to be shot anywhere is harder than headshotting a B27 target at the range though. And if you miss, you've alerted him to your presence, informed him that you have a gun and that you're not a very good shot.

DeLo 12-22-2012 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opie 1 Kenopie (Post 19766695)
Solution... Head shot. :dunno:

+100 -This, or pelvic girdle.

ArmoryDoc 12-22-2012 10:40

Staggering rounds is never a good idea as it can affect function of the gun. You're better off carrying a mag with different rounds in it. Don't worry about inflicting "pain". Worry about your accuracy and shot placement in the face of tremendous stress. Twenty five yards from an active shooter will feel like 25". You better be good at stress management.

Opie 1 Kenopie 12-22-2012 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opie 1 Kenopie (Post 19766695)
Solution... Head shot. :dunno:

I think the impact of a couple 165 grains in the vest might buy you some time to get a better shot. Exactly the reason we practice 2 to the body and 1 to the head.

Trapped_in_Kali 12-22-2012 22:29

*Disclaimer* *I have absolutely no experience or facts to back up the following, it is just my opinion.*

IMHO Put a cast iron frying pan against your chest and have a buddy hit it as hard as he can with a baseball bat and that will be similar to being hit with a high power pistol round with armor (probably a bit more but close enough for this example). This will stun any BG enough to get him to stop shooting and give you time to try for a head shot. Anyone on PCP ... well I doubt they will be using a firearm or using it accurately if they are. If you are up against a combat vet on psychiatric drugs .... well you are probably out matched & *******ed anyway.

Just my opinion.

G29SFWTF 12-23-2012 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmoryDoc (Post 19766896)
Staggering rounds is never a good idea as it can affect function of the gun. You're better off carrying a mag with different rounds in it. Don't worry about inflicting "pain". Worry about your accuracy and shot placement in the face of tremendous stress. Twenty five yards from an active shooter will feel like 25". You better be good at stress management.

But if both rounds are 155 grain and have a similar nose shape and same overall length surely that's pretty close to the same bullet as far as gun functionality is concerned.

ArmoryDoc 12-23-2012 10:09

Let me throw this thought out there. The 10mm is a hard-hitter, no doubt. If you punch through a bad guy with a FP or ball ammo, that round has to stop somewhere. Hopefully not in an innocent bystander. I would never recommend using anything BUT hollowpoint ammo for defense in a 10mm. The risk is too great.

UnitBob 12-23-2012 11:39

All else being equal, faster is better than heavier against Kevlar.

Get the longest 9x25 Dillon barrel you can. Then use 80gr. Barnes TACXP which are suppose to get 2120 out of a 6" barrel, or the 95gr. which get 2000 fps. I'm guessing that will go through a type IIIa vest.

G29SFWTF 12-23-2012 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmoryDoc (Post 19770787)
Let me throw this thought out there. The 10mm is a hard-hitter, no doubt. If you punch through a bad guy with a FP or ball ammo, that round has to stop somewhere. Hopefully not in an innocent bystander. I would never recommend using anything BUT hollowpoint ammo for defense in a 10mm. The risk is too great.

I see what you're saying and I used to think that way also but I don't now for two reasons.

The police only hit their targets about 25% of the time. So 75% of their bullets go flying who knows where, and that is from trained professionals. Remember the case in New York recently where a man shot his co-worker and then fled on the busy streets? The police returned fire and took him down, and they only hit NINE bystanders in the process (none fatal). Forget over penetration, flat out missing the target is what's going to happen with most of your bullets because if that is as good as the police can do, I think it's unrealistic to expect better results from civilians.

Secondly, most gunshot wounds are not fatal. There is a CDC study of 5 years of gunshot woulds from 1993-1998 and 69% survived. It sounds callous but I think it's important to consider.

I don't think either of these should be taken as license to spray and pray. But the TMJ's I'm carrying are meant to be a hedge against a vest or other obstruction (BG using cover) and if things are bad enough to justify a CHL firing his gun, then it means a BG is trying to do harm and a possible bystander hit may be the lesser of two evils.

Opie 1 Kenopie 12-24-2012 22:42

But G29SFWTF, those 10mm rounds are hot enough that standard overpenetration is something to be concerned about. I honestly can't figure why a guy would want to INCREASE the chance his round will pass through by using FMJ bullets.

I work with and around lots of bad guys for a living. I'm an Active Shooter Response Instructor for my agency and I've spent years dealing with parolees and gang bangers. The LAST thing I'm worried about is them having soft body armor. If one-in-a-million chance they are wearing it? Punch em with your 10mm rounds and then work in a head shot. My professional opinion, as someone who's seen a LOT of shootings and is married to a judge, is to stay away from staggering rounds. That kind of horseplay will hang you in court and more importantly, could injure someone you don't want to hurt.

VinnieG 12-24-2012 22:56

Two to the chest and one to the head, repeat as needed.
As stated above a pelvic shot is also a good shot to stop mobility.

Andrew Wiggin 12-25-2012 14:52

Theoretically, the fastest and hardest bullet has the best chance. For example, a 135 gr at 1,600+ fps. While a IIIA would almost certainly stop that, a IIA might not.

9x25mm Dillon would give you a way better chance of penetrating soft armor but your best option with a hand gun is going to be training for failure to stop. There are many reasons for which one or more hits to the chest might not stop a threat and all of them are remedied by a hit to the CNS....



....except for unstoppable robot killers from the future. The only thing that stops them is a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

dm1906 12-25-2012 15:53

Over-analyzed, IMO. Go back to basics, and stay there. If you're concerned with body armor, practice body armor drills. For those who wear soft body armor, be very careful with this. Historically, many/most (depending on the statistics you accept) cops/carriers are killed with their own weapon. If you gear up to defeat armor, you may defeat your own.

Staggering rounds is a premeditation to an anticipated outcome. Nothing EVER works out as planned. Count on that. There is no one-size-fits-all weapon system, so we must gear up according to what we may encounter. Planning on a specific condition will almost always ensure you will never encounter it. Like Opie 1, I'm a career professional (except I'm retired, and my wife only wears a bath robe). Accepted, established and practiced policies are carefully developed. Varying from them opens you to less than acceptable liabilities. If you are a civilian carrier, the [legal] weapon system doesn't matter. You will be a suspect from the moment you break leather. A good shoot will be a good shoot, regardless of the events or equipment. If you are justified to drop the hammer on a person (whether you actually do or not, hit or miss), nothing else matters. Ride out the process, and stick to your guns. I've seen many careers end badly because a good officer allowed himself to second guess his actions in court. The same applies to civilians. If you are confident in your thought process and actions, the investigator, prosecutor, judge and/or jury will feel that, as well. If you carry, have handy your credentials, and find a GOOD lawyer, specialized in such cases, before you need one. If you find yourself in a situation allowing you limited phone calls, the lawyer should be the first. If you are read your rights, invoke them, immediately, and wait for your mouthpiece. Volunteer nothing, and make NO spontaneous statements. Anything you say WILL be used against you.

TKM 12-25-2012 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped_in_Kali (Post 19769502)
*Disclaimer* *I have absolutely no experience or facts to back up the following, it is just my opinion.*

IMHO Put a cast iron frying pan against your chest and have a buddy hit it as hard as he can with a baseball bat and that will be similar to being hit with a high power pistol round with armor (probably a bit more but close enough for this example). This will stun any BG enough to get him to stop shooting and give you time to try for a head shot. Anyone on PCP ... well I doubt they will be using a firearm or using it accurately if they are. If you are up against a combat vet on psychiatric drugs .... well you are probably out matched & *******ed anyway.

Just my opinion.

Rich Davis begs to differ.

Ethereal Killer 12-25-2012 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin (Post 19779245)
Theoretically, the fastest and hardest bullet has the best chance. For example, a 135 gr at 1,600+ fps. While a IIIA would almost certainly stop that, a IIA might not.

9x25mm Dillon would give you a way better chance of penetrating soft armor but your best option with a hand gun is going to be training for failure to stop. There are many reasons for which one or more hits to the chest might not stop a threat and all of them are remedied by a hit to the CNS....



....except for unstoppable robot killers from the future. The only thing that stops them is a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.


This. 9x25 = AP happiness

Velocity is the key to penetrating hard body armor. for soft body armor using a pistol, you need a very hard very pointy projectile to push aside the fabric threads. I imagine that there a ration of velocity to the diameter of the projectile, with the smaller the projectile the lower the velocity required to penetrate.

I imagine a brass inverted cone would do the trick really nicely, but thats well into the realm of custom lathe work.

Such a projectile made for a pistol would also be very illegal under federal law for most people.


Bottom line if you are going to be in a fight with armored personnel, bring a rifle and shoot often and early.


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