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-   -   Union members, help me understand something. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1453615)

jutland 11-17-2012 13:05

Union members, help me understand something.
 
Teamsters knew from their press release a few days before the Hostess strike deadline that Hostess was not bluffing, as the Teamsters had seen the company books. Bakers union didn't see it that way. Why didn't teamsters basically advise its workers, to whom it owes a duty, to go back to work and cross a picket line created by a less sophisticated and less informed union?

I mean, I have always presumed union members to be lazy and without a grasp of how to stand on individual merit. I did not know they apparently were stupid.

lunarspeak 11-17-2012 13:13

i would guess that the more the workers get paid the more the teamsters are paid soooooooooo......id guess they were just greedy

WarCry 11-17-2012 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jutland (Post 19641436)
Teamsters knew from their press release a few days before the Hostess strike deadline that Hostess was not bluffing, as the Teamsters had seen the company books. Bakers union didn't see it that way. Why didn't teamsters basically advise its workers, to whom it owes a duty, to go back to work and cross a picket line created by a less sophisticated and less informed union?

I mean, I have always presumed union members to be lazy and without a grasp of how to stand on individual merit. I did not know they apparently were stupid.

What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?

Tim151515 11-17-2012 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarCry (Post 19641454)
What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?

apparently 100%

Armchair Commando 11-17-2012 13:28

Unions are Worthless! God i hope Ohio becomes a right to work state soon!

Huaco Kid 11-17-2012 13:28

My wife's family is going on fourth generation sheet metal union. I've never done it. I understand both sides.

Why did the union guys in N.J. cuss the guys from the other states that came to fix the power grid?

Some things I don't understand.

I think the union just makes money for the Big Shots. Which is what most of the union guys hate the most.

?

Armchair Commando 11-17-2012 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarCry (Post 19641454)
What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?

Whats acceptable to you? a 5% pay cut or you lose your job?

Tim151515 11-17-2012 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheStreetKing (Post 19641463)
Unions are Worthless! God i hope Ohio becomes a right to work state soon!

me too. but i dont see that happening since the unions are pushing us into the blue.

srhoades 11-17-2012 13:37

Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

Do unions likewise have potential evils? Absolutely. Once they start getting in bed with politics and ignoring their responsibility to negotiate a fair wage they have overstepped their bounds.

I think both sides have a share in the blame.

Adjuster 11-17-2012 13:40

I dislike unions myself but I think I understand their position. If the union caved in and accepted the not agreed to pay cut then every company in the future in the same type of situation will simply threaten to close the doors and shut down unless the union accepts the offer.


/

PaulMason 11-17-2012 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim151515 (Post 19641456)
apparently 100%

:thumbsup:

PaulMason 11-17-2012 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by srhoades (Post 19641485)
Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

Do unions likewise have potential evils? Absolutely. Once they start getting in bed with politics and ignoring their responsibility to negotiate a fair wage they have overstepped their bounds.

I think both sides have a share in the blame.

The company was in bankruptcy. If it could pay its debts. In other words the income could not pay its expenses. Not very complicated.

wrenrj1 11-17-2012 14:06

What I heard on FNC business segments this morning was that the bakers union had some pretty ridiculous things in their contract that they would not let go of to save $, such as twinkies and wonder bread not being able to be delivered in the same truck, or the truck driver could not unload/stock the shelves, that was for another union employee to handle...

The company chose to go bankrupt instead. Guess bank of Obama was ok with that.

Roger1079 11-17-2012 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by srhoades (Post 19641485)
Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

An employee always has the option to quit. Nobody is forcing them to deal with unfair business practices. They are employees not prisoners or slaves.

PaulMason 11-17-2012 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adjuster (Post 19641490)
I dislike unions myself but I think I understand their position. If the union caved in and accepted the not agreed to pay cut then every company in the future in the same type of situation will simply threaten to close the doors and shut down unless the union accepts the offer.


/

Any company in bankruptcy or making a huge profit can do what you suggest if the owners are willing to do it.

The unions could have looked at the books and bankruptcy filing and saw the financials and saw if management had room to negotiate on wages. Maybe they could of negotiated for a piece of the new company for the wage reduction. Why didn't they do that?

The union officials are paid by all union members - not just Hostess. The officials didn't have much to lose, except the members that worked for Hostess. They bet and lost. Sad.

paul45 11-17-2012 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by srhoades (Post 19641485)
I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

Do unions likewise have potential evils? Absolutely. Once they start getting in bed with politics and ignoring their responsibility to negotiate a fair wage they have overstepped their bounds.

I think both sides have a share in the blame.

I need help in understanding your post.

Could you point me to verified provenance of Hostess...

Quote:

"slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line."
and...
Quote:

"dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment"?
I haven't read this and am interested, thanks.

Jon_R 11-17-2012 14:14

What is fair wage? To me it a wage someone is willing to pay and someone is willing to receive. If the workers where worth x than someone would pay it so why do they care if the company closes they can just go somewhere else and make x. Unless they aren't worth that. Blow it up someone will fill the void for tasty treats. Market will sort it out.

[QUOTE=srhoades;19641485]Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

Do unions likewise have potential evils? Absolutely. Once they start getting in bed with politics and ignoring their responsibility to negotiate a fair wage they have overstepped their bounds.

I think both sides have a share in the blame.[/QUOTE]

Roger1079 11-17-2012 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarCry (Post 19641454)
What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?

Whatever it takes to keep the business running is the acceptable number. The bakers union stood their ground and now look at those morons. Instead of getting paid less, they opted to get paid nothing. Then again these people were stupid enough to join a union in the first place so I can see how basic math may have been too complicated for them. Lets use your numbers as a reference point.

Paycheck - 5% > 0
Paycheck - 7% > 0
Paycheck - 8% > 0
Paycheck - 10% > 0

Seems fairly simple to me. I guess the bakers union doesn't provide intelligence as part of the contract.

DanaT 11-17-2012 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulMason (Post 19641546)
They bet and lost. Sad.

It wasnt a bet (gamble). Any member could have gone online and seen the financial filings in bankruptcy court. Because they were too stupid/lazy/etc to not become informed and made a stupid choice is not sad. Its deserved.

Jon_R 11-17-2012 14:20

It is only a problem if you are paying an employee over their value. If my employer said he was cutting my pay 10% I would just go to other companies in the field because I can. Other people that can would to. You would only be left with the ones that can't because there is limited market for their skills. If there is limited market for their skills well then that means something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adjuster (Post 19641490)
I dislike unions myself but I think I understand their position. If the union caved in and accepted the not agreed to pay cut then every company in the future in the same type of situation will simply threaten to close the doors and shut down unless the union accepts the offer.


/


harlenm 11-17-2012 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger1079 (Post 19641553)
Whatever it takes to keep the business running is the acceptable number. The bakers union stood their ground and now look at those morons. Instead of getting paid less, they opted to get paid nothing. Then again these people were stupid enough to join a union in the first place so I can see how basic math may have been too complicated for them. Lets use your numbers as a reference point.

Paycheck - 5% > 0
Paycheck - 7% > 0
Paycheck - 8% > 0
Paycheck - 10% > 0

Seems fairly simple to me. I guess the bakers union doesn't provide intelligence as part of the contract.

Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Wolfgang 11-17-2012 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by srhoades (Post 19641485)
Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

Do unions likewise have potential evils? Absolutely. Once they start getting in bed with politics and ignoring their responsibility to negotiate a fair wage they have overstepped their bounds.

I think both sides have a share in the blame.


At least they won't be screwed now!

lunarspeak 11-17-2012 14:25

so the guys that work for hostess are now jobless and the guys that refused the offers by hostess still have jobs and prob make something into the 6 figures..


im sorry but those guys screwed up...they got greedy and wanted it all and now they got nothing.....i mean werent these guys makeing like $30+ a hour???? they deserved to lose thier jobs if you cant live off of that.. i only make $14 a hour and i own a house and a nice car and have never wanted for anything...well that one chic at olive garden but im working on that.

gilfo 11-17-2012 14:26

How much is the bet that Hostess comes back under maybe another name and resumes without a union. It's all about the dollars. I don't think a company as big as Hostess closes up shop without a plan.

Jon_R 11-17-2012 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by harlenm (Post 19641565)
Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Months?? I hope it is still weeks though I know how the election went so maybe. :dunno:


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