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-   -   G30 bullets fail to expand? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1453295)

Andy W 11-15-2012 09:57

G30 bullets fail to expand?
 
Does anyone know if common JHP rounds have a significantly higher liklihood of failing to expand when fired out of a G30? I've been considering purchasing a G30 Gen 4 but the main thing holding me back is my concern that JHPs such as the standard Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger-T would have a high liklihood of failing to expand due to the shorter barrel. If I buy a .45, the only rounds I'm interested in using, for both practice and HD/carry are standard pressure 230 grain loads. I really don't want to mess with +p or lighter bullets. So, when using standard pressure 230 grain bullets in a G30, has anyone found a high incidence of JHPs failing to expand, or not expanding well enough?

attrapereves 11-15-2012 10:32

It shouldn't matter that much. I've seen gel tests that compare a G30 and a 5" 1911. The only difference is that the JHP shot out of a longer barrel expands slightly more.

Here is a guy who tested loads out of a Springfield XDs (even shorter barrel). http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...o-testing.html

Looks like the ammo performed well.

Also, tnoutdoors9 tested 230gr GoldDots out of a G30 and a 5" 1911. One test used newspaper in jugs and the other was gel, so that might make slight differences. Anyways... the 1911 bullet expanded slightly more than the G30 bullet.



dp2002813 11-15-2012 10:32

Hi Andy,

The answer I have seen so far is no, though any bullet from any gun can fail at anytime. No problems with expanding from shorter barrel G30. Here is a link to a video.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch...ure=plpp_video


I like the reputations of each load and carry both.

Andy W 11-15-2012 11:26

Now that you bring them up, I do remember seeing these videos. In fact I subscribe to tnoutdoors9. That makes me feel better although I would like to see more tests. The Gold Dot was the load I was worried about, not so much the Ranger-T or HST. Both of these, according to Mas Ayoob, are designed for optimum expansion in shorter barrels as well as longer ones.

I see a lot of people mention they carry HST or Ranger 230 grain +p in their smaller .45s for added velocity but that just doesn't appeal to me. To me the cost is much more than the benefit. You get significantly more recoil and only a little more expansion.

SCmasterblaster 11-15-2012 11:39

The bullets expanded just fine in the video.

Andy W 11-15-2012 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19634615)
The bullets expanded just fine in the video.

Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?

fredj338 11-15-2012 11:49

The bbl is not that short. Vel loss in the 45acp isn't as critical as other service rounds, it's designed to expand going slow. I get good expansion from my 1911OM using just about any of the majors JHP. If you are really worried, drop to a 185gr or 200gr XTP JHP for higher impact vel.

Andy W 11-15-2012 12:05

By the way, I'm gonna go ahead and sort of renege on my claim in my other thread that the .45 is not significantly better than the 9mm. Yes, I still maintain that the 9mm is a perfectly adequate defensive cartridge. However, I think the .45 does offer a substantial advantage in modern loads, namely the Ranger-T and HST. When I wrote my other thread, I was not aware that HSTs and Rangers in .45 were regularly expanding to .90" or greater and still penetrating more than 12." That's almost an inch in diameter. And I think I've seen a test or two where one of these loads actually expanded to just over 1." You have one of those sharp edged mother****ers tearing through you at that size, it's gonna **** your **** up.

cowboy1964 11-15-2012 12:29

If size is everything there are ways to get .50s in a Glock.

GlockWheeler 11-15-2012 12:32

I volunteered the use of my Glock 30 during a Winchester sponsored ballistics demonstration about five years ago and the two loads used were the Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain +P and our current duty load, the Federal 230 grain HST +P. Both of these loads performed very well through all tests when fired from the G30. The HST had better overall expansion, similar penetration and suffered zero core/jacket separation. The Ranger load performed well, but had a couple core/jacket separations. We did not have access to the Gold Dot 230 grain for comparison.

Andy W 11-15-2012 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlockWheeler (Post 19634812)
I volunteered the use of my Glock 30 during a Winchester sponsored ballistics demonstration about five years ago and the two loads used were the Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain +P and our current duty load, the Federal 230 grain HST +P. Both of these loads performed very well through all tests when fired from the G30. The HST had better overall expansion, similar penetration and suffered zero core/jacket separation. The Ranger load performed well, but had a couple core/jacket separations. We did not have access to the Gold Dot 230 grain for comparison.

How much more recoil do +p loads have in .45?

GlockWheeler 11-15-2012 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy W (Post 19634840)
How much more recoil do +p loads have in .45?

I will not lie, the +P loads do have more felt recoil, regardless of ammo make and manufacturer. I have a Glock 29 as well and there really is no difference in recoil when I compare warm 10mm loads to the +P 45 ACP. The only reason I have the HST+P is because that was what was more readily available when I ordered my carry ammo. I would have no problem using the standard pressure loads with modern bullets, as they are designed to work well at lower velocities. I will likely order standard pressure loads when I purchase new carry ammo for the decreased recoil.

dp2002813 11-15-2012 13:48

Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth. Important? I'm not qualified to say. I know that head-on, I'm not 12" deep, even with my expanding posterior! well maybe I am right now at the hind end of things. :)

Standard pressure has been getting the job done for years and I personally am comfortable with it. Even better, Mas writes in his book "Conceal Carry" that "standard pressure 230-grain 45 ACP with conventional JHP bullet pretty much duplicates the recoil and trajectory of GI hardball in the same weight, allowing cost-effective training..." Mas Ayoob, Conceal Carry Gun Digest Books 2008

I thought long and hard about short barrels and effectiveness in choosing ammo for .357mag, so I can empathize with ya.

cowboy1964 11-15-2012 14:10

I've never shot 230+P but have shot a box of Gold Dot 200+P. Very sharp recoil. To the point of stinging my hand (with an M&P 45c). Pass.

SCmasterblaster 11-15-2012 14:54

I would think
 
that .45 ACP +p recoil is a factor in the micro-Glock .45 ACPs.

Andy W 11-15-2012 18:45

So a lot more recoil and only marginally better performance?


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SCmasterblaster 11-15-2012 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy W (Post 19636048)
So a lot more recoil and only marginally better performance?


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I guess so. The std pressure .45s worked for decades.

Andy W 11-15-2012 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19636076)
I guess so. The std pressure .45s worked for decades.

The standard pressure 230 grain load is what gave the .45 its reputation.

Warp 11-15-2012 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19635247)
that .45 ACP +p recoil is a factor in the micro-Glock .45 ACPs.

Which .45 ACP Glocks qualify as micro?

fredj338 11-15-2012 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by dp2002813 (Post 19635054)
Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth. Important? I'm not qualified to say. I know that head-on, I'm not 12" deep, even with my expanding posterior! well maybe I am right now at the hind end of things. :)

Standard pressure has been getting the job done for years and I personally am comfortable with it. Even better, Mas writes in his book "Conceal Carry" that "standard pressure 230-grain 45 ACP with conventional JHP bullet pretty much duplicates the recoil and trajectory of GI hardball in the same weight, allowing cost-effective training..." Mas Ayoob, Conceal Carry Gun Digest Books 2008

I thought long and hard about short barrels and effectiveness in choosing ammo for .357mag, so I can empathize with ya.

I am not a fan of +P loads in 45acp either, too little gain for the add'l. recoil & slower, accurate follow up shots, especially in small/ltwt guns. Std pressure rounds form 185gr-230gr work fine.
BTW, most avg men are 12" from shoulder to heart on an oblique shot. Never assume your target is going to give you a clear frontal shot. Even then, good chance a forearm is going to catch that bullet first. Now make it a bigger than avg attacker, add all that up & you can see why a 12" min. is what the FBI settled on. DOes that mean a 10" penetration doesn't get it done, maybe, maybe not.:dunno:

Warp 11-15-2012 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338 (Post 19636853)
I am not a fan of +P loads in 45acp either, too little gain for the add'l. recoil & slower, accurate follow up shots, especially in small/ltwt guns. Std pressure rounds form 185gr-230gr work fine.
BTW, most avg men are 12" from shoulder to heart on an oblique shot. Never assume your target is going to give you a clear frontal shot. Even then, good chance a forearm is going to catch that bullet first. Now make it a bigger than avg attacker, add all that up & you can see why a 12" min. is what the FBI settled on. DOes that mean a 10" penetration doesn't get it done, maybe, maybe not.:dunno:

Also remember that breaking the skin requires more penetration than it's thickness would seem to indicate. I recall reading from a respected expert that it was the equivalent of 4" of bare ballistics gel penetration to get through the skin.

SCmasterblaster 11-16-2012 11:20

Come on now folks
 
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber. :cool:

Andy W 11-19-2012 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19638039)
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber. :cool:

Not with modern ammo. 9mm JHPs can easily expand to greater than .50 caliber, with .60" not being uncommon and some instances of .70" in 147 grain HSTs. However, the best .45 JHPS can reach .8" with > .9" not being unheard of.

Also, a FMJ wound channel will not be the same diameter as the bullet that made it. They close in on themselves and will probably look more like an ice pick wound. With an FMJ or unexpanded bullet (even expanded ones sometimes), it will be next to impossible to tell what caliber bullet made the wound just from looking at the hole. I've read several reputable sources, including Mas Ayoob that verify this. It's not like on TV where the detective arrives at the crime scene takes one look at the body and says "Yep, they got him with a 9mm" or "holy ****, that's a .45."

SCmasterblaster 11-21-2012 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by attrapereves (Post 19634366)
It shouldn't matter that much. I've seen gel tests that compare a G30 and a 5" 1911. The only difference is that the JHP shot out of a longer barrel expands slightly more.

Here is a guy who tested loads out of a Springfield XDs (even shorter barrel). http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...o-testing.html

Looks like the ammo performed well.

Also, tnoutdoors9 tested 230gr GoldDots out of a G30 and a 5" 1911. One test used newspaper in jugs and the other was gel, so that might make slight differences. Anyways... the 1911 bullet expanded slightly more than the G30 bullet.

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr Test with Denim - YouTube

It looks like this guy got expansion! :cool:

fredj338 11-21-2012 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19638039)
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber. :cool:

More expansion is nice but the diff really is getting a bullet to crush tissue & not just push it aside. Given that RNFMJ are like making small, semi sealing puncture wounds, I would take a 9mm that only expands to 45 cal vs a 45 RNFMJ. The perm wound will be larger, damage more tissue, greater/faster blood loss, quicker end to the fight.


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