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-   -   G30 bullets fail to expand? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1453295)

Andy W 11-15-2012 10:57

G30 bullets fail to expand?
 
Does anyone know if common JHP rounds have a significantly higher liklihood of failing to expand when fired out of a G30? I've been considering purchasing a G30 Gen 4 but the main thing holding me back is my concern that JHPs such as the standard Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger-T would have a high liklihood of failing to expand due to the shorter barrel. If I buy a .45, the only rounds I'm interested in using, for both practice and HD/carry are standard pressure 230 grain loads. I really don't want to mess with +p or lighter bullets. So, when using standard pressure 230 grain bullets in a G30, has anyone found a high incidence of JHPs failing to expand, or not expanding well enough?

attrapereves 11-15-2012 11:32

It shouldn't matter that much. I've seen gel tests that compare a G30 and a 5" 1911. The only difference is that the JHP shot out of a longer barrel expands slightly more.

Here is a guy who tested loads out of a Springfield XDs (even shorter barrel). http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...o-testing.html

Looks like the ammo performed well.

Also, tnoutdoors9 tested 230gr GoldDots out of a G30 and a 5" 1911. One test used newspaper in jugs and the other was gel, so that might make slight differences. Anyways... the 1911 bullet expanded slightly more than the G30 bullet.



dp2002813 11-15-2012 11:32

Hi Andy,

The answer I have seen so far is no, though any bullet from any gun can fail at anytime. No problems with expanding from shorter barrel G30. Here is a link to a video.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch...ure=plpp_video


I like the reputations of each load and carry both.

Andy W 11-15-2012 12:26

Now that you bring them up, I do remember seeing these videos. In fact I subscribe to tnoutdoors9. That makes me feel better although I would like to see more tests. The Gold Dot was the load I was worried about, not so much the Ranger-T or HST. Both of these, according to Mas Ayoob, are designed for optimum expansion in shorter barrels as well as longer ones.

I see a lot of people mention they carry HST or Ranger 230 grain +p in their smaller .45s for added velocity but that just doesn't appeal to me. To me the cost is much more than the benefit. You get significantly more recoil and only a little more expansion.

SCmasterblaster 11-15-2012 12:39

The bullets expanded just fine in the video.

Andy W 11-15-2012 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19634615)
The bullets expanded just fine in the video.

Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?

fredj338 11-15-2012 12:49

The bbl is not that short. Vel loss in the 45acp isn't as critical as other service rounds, it's designed to expand going slow. I get good expansion from my 1911OM using just about any of the majors JHP. If you are really worried, drop to a 185gr or 200gr XTP JHP for higher impact vel.

Andy W 11-15-2012 13:05

By the way, I'm gonna go ahead and sort of renege on my claim in my other thread that the .45 is not significantly better than the 9mm. Yes, I still maintain that the 9mm is a perfectly adequate defensive cartridge. However, I think the .45 does offer a substantial advantage in modern loads, namely the Ranger-T and HST. When I wrote my other thread, I was not aware that HSTs and Rangers in .45 were regularly expanding to .90" or greater and still penetrating more than 12." That's almost an inch in diameter. And I think I've seen a test or two where one of these loads actually expanded to just over 1." You have one of those sharp edged mother****ers tearing through you at that size, it's gonna **** your **** up.

cowboy1964 11-15-2012 13:29

If size is everything there are ways to get .50s in a Glock.

GlockWheeler 11-15-2012 13:32

I volunteered the use of my Glock 30 during a Winchester sponsored ballistics demonstration about five years ago and the two loads used were the Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain +P and our current duty load, the Federal 230 grain HST +P. Both of these loads performed very well through all tests when fired from the G30. The HST had better overall expansion, similar penetration and suffered zero core/jacket separation. The Ranger load performed well, but had a couple core/jacket separations. We did not have access to the Gold Dot 230 grain for comparison.

Andy W 11-15-2012 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlockWheeler (Post 19634812)
I volunteered the use of my Glock 30 during a Winchester sponsored ballistics demonstration about five years ago and the two loads used were the Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain +P and our current duty load, the Federal 230 grain HST +P. Both of these loads performed very well through all tests when fired from the G30. The HST had better overall expansion, similar penetration and suffered zero core/jacket separation. The Ranger load performed well, but had a couple core/jacket separations. We did not have access to the Gold Dot 230 grain for comparison.

How much more recoil do +p loads have in .45?

GlockWheeler 11-15-2012 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy W (Post 19634840)
How much more recoil do +p loads have in .45?

I will not lie, the +P loads do have more felt recoil, regardless of ammo make and manufacturer. I have a Glock 29 as well and there really is no difference in recoil when I compare warm 10mm loads to the +P 45 ACP. The only reason I have the HST+P is because that was what was more readily available when I ordered my carry ammo. I would have no problem using the standard pressure loads with modern bullets, as they are designed to work well at lower velocities. I will likely order standard pressure loads when I purchase new carry ammo for the decreased recoil.

dp2002813 11-15-2012 14:48

Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth. Important? I'm not qualified to say. I know that head-on, I'm not 12" deep, even with my expanding posterior! well maybe I am right now at the hind end of things. :)

Standard pressure has been getting the job done for years and I personally am comfortable with it. Even better, Mas writes in his book "Conceal Carry" that "standard pressure 230-grain 45 ACP with conventional JHP bullet pretty much duplicates the recoil and trajectory of GI hardball in the same weight, allowing cost-effective training..." Mas Ayoob, Conceal Carry Gun Digest Books 2008

I thought long and hard about short barrels and effectiveness in choosing ammo for .357mag, so I can empathize with ya.

cowboy1964 11-15-2012 15:10

I've never shot 230+P but have shot a box of Gold Dot 200+P. Very sharp recoil. To the point of stinging my hand (with an M&P 45c). Pass.

SCmasterblaster 11-15-2012 15:54

I would think
 
that .45 ACP +p recoil is a factor in the micro-Glock .45 ACPs.

Andy W 11-15-2012 19:45

So a lot more recoil and only marginally better performance?


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SCmasterblaster 11-15-2012 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy W (Post 19636048)
So a lot more recoil and only marginally better performance?


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I guess so. The std pressure .45s worked for decades.

Andy W 11-15-2012 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19636076)
I guess so. The std pressure .45s worked for decades.

The standard pressure 230 grain load is what gave the .45 its reputation.

Warp 11-15-2012 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19635247)
that .45 ACP +p recoil is a factor in the micro-Glock .45 ACPs.

Which .45 ACP Glocks qualify as micro?

fredj338 11-16-2012 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by dp2002813 (Post 19635054)
Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth. Important? I'm not qualified to say. I know that head-on, I'm not 12" deep, even with my expanding posterior! well maybe I am right now at the hind end of things. :)

Standard pressure has been getting the job done for years and I personally am comfortable with it. Even better, Mas writes in his book "Conceal Carry" that "standard pressure 230-grain 45 ACP with conventional JHP bullet pretty much duplicates the recoil and trajectory of GI hardball in the same weight, allowing cost-effective training..." Mas Ayoob, Conceal Carry Gun Digest Books 2008

I thought long and hard about short barrels and effectiveness in choosing ammo for .357mag, so I can empathize with ya.

I am not a fan of +P loads in 45acp either, too little gain for the add'l. recoil & slower, accurate follow up shots, especially in small/ltwt guns. Std pressure rounds form 185gr-230gr work fine.
BTW, most avg men are 12" from shoulder to heart on an oblique shot. Never assume your target is going to give you a clear frontal shot. Even then, good chance a forearm is going to catch that bullet first. Now make it a bigger than avg attacker, add all that up & you can see why a 12" min. is what the FBI settled on. DOes that mean a 10" penetration doesn't get it done, maybe, maybe not.:dunno:


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