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OctoberRust 10-29-2012 21:18

The .40 sucks.
No, I'm not saying that, just an interesting video.

I'll sit back for a sec and watch everyone's input on this.:popcorn:

JW1178 10-29-2012 21:37

Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?

NEOH212 10-30-2012 00:52

9mm and .40 run in the same pressure range. So what's his point again? (Like the Winchester load that runs at 20% over SAAMI spec?)

High pressure rounds wear guns out faster? Does he mean like a steady diet of 9mm +P+ too?

In order to get the 9mm to really perform and rival the .40, you need velocity. Your not getting that velocity from a short barrel. You need a full size handgun unless your going to run ammo that's too hot and potentially unsafe.

The .40 and .45, as well as the .357 Sig still have more to offer over the 9mm. This isn't to say the 9mm is no good. If it's all I had, I wouldn't feel under gunned. Given a choice, I'd always go larger since I can easily handle the larger calibers.

So many of the 9mm fanboys tout the +P+ ammo and say it's equal to the .45 now. Ok, now I get to tout the Winchester Ranger T-Series 230 +P or the Federal HST 230 +P.

Take a hard look at the test data and tell me that the 9mm outperforms either of those loads. I think not. There is no way in hell.

I'd put myself up against this tatted up feminine hygiene product any day of the week. I'll even shoot a .40 and I'll show him how it's done. Just because he can't shoot a .40, .357 Sig, .45 Gap fast and accurate doesn't mean that there aren't those of us that can and do.

Examining the approximated terminal effects of bullets in ballistics gelatin is one thing. The way the bullet/cartridge actually performs in real life is another.

While I agree that nine is fine, it's still no .40 or .45 comparing the best loads or those calibers. If anything, the 9mm +P+ gets into the mid range .40 ballistics while the best .40 gets into the low to mid .45 ballistics.

The newer ammo for the .45 is going to be rather hard to beat without moving into a a exotic handgun caliber.

There are things to be gained and lost between the calibers. Sometimes they ever are substantial. Modern bullet technology has narrowed the gap some but rest assured, there is still a gap between the calibers. The same technological advances that made the 9mm better also did the same for all the other calibers that are commonly used in personal defense.

Any semiautomatic handgun that I'd ever use to defend my life will always have a 4 in the beginning of the caliber and preferably have a 5 after the 4.

It's my feeling and observation that there is too much to be gained from the .40 and up to go backwards/smaller in caliber.

The analogy comes to mind of the 4 cylinder versus 8 cylinder engine. Sure, you can make the same amount of practical horsepower of a V8 in a 4 cylinder engine, but now that little 4 cylinder has to scream and run as hard as it can to do the job of the larger engine.

And in the end, there is no replacement for displacement. To each their own but for me, size does matter. That's why I carry a .40 or .45 and you can't pull the phallic card out since I don't have any of the required equipment!


(Crap, I guess I can't say 9 is fine if your a girl! :tongueout:)

NEOH212 10-30-2012 01:03


Originally Posted by JW1178 (Post 19569831)
Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?

He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)


CaliMoon2005- L 10-30-2012 02:55


Arc Angel 10-30-2012 03:41


Originally Posted by JW1178 (Post 19569831)
Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?

You're looking at JAMES YEAGER!

Can't say for sure, but I very much doubt that Yeager's on Glock Talk.

It's NOT a matter of the 9 and the 40 operating in the same ignition pressure range (33 to 35,000 psi); it's more a matter of controlling the initial pressure spike that occurs at the moment of primer ignition and bullet launch.

All ya got 'a do is use common sense to realize that no 40 caliber round ever goes off like a 9mm. The 9mm's recoil impulse is much easier to control than a 40 caliber's - That's what I believe Yeager is actually referring to.

ditto1958 10-30-2012 05:35

I love that guy. Know why? Because he makes his living by not being afraid to take strong for stands on things. In fact, he's controversial on purpose. It attracts viewers, and he knows it.

Even if he is full of crap on an issue, at least he got people watch. And, he also got them thinking about it. That's a good thing, the way I look at it.

kaech 10-30-2012 05:35


Originally Posted by NEOH212 (Post 19570163)
He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)


Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

TheJ 10-30-2012 06:04

He does make some very very valid points. Like many studies have shown that in effect there is no significant difference in number of rounds to incapacitate between 9mm & .40. So a logical question is why you need to use a round that is demonstrably tougher to shoot as well. Conversely if there isn't a significant difference in how tough it is to shoot something well then why not go with the more powerful caliber. Most (not all) people who make that comparison though are typically comparing how they shoot in slow fire and relaxed/controlled situations, not under pressure.

People have their own reasons for their caliber choice but they do tend to overly butt-hurt when somebody comes along and picks on their choice.

Obviously, the title for video is intentionally provocative to attract viewers.

Scoob 10-30-2012 06:34

OK, .40 is not higher pressure than 9mm although 357sig is. I agree that .40/357sig are harder to shoot but the reason seems pretty obvious. They are more powerful and in the same size gun. He mentioned 45 GAP. Again, is it the higher pressure of the GAP that causes more recoil or the fact that it's being fired from a smaller gun? Shoot a Glock 36 and the low pressure 45acp becomes a snappy round.

I think pressure may have an effect but I think it would be minimal. I've shot full size 1911s in .40 and 45 and they felt identical.

Snowman92D 10-30-2012 06:35

Just before the battle, Mother...
I was sittin' drinkin' brew.
When I seen the hadji's comin',
To the roadside ditch I quickly flew

Travclem 10-30-2012 07:11


Originally Posted by kaech (Post 19570336)
Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

SCmasterblaster 10-30-2012 07:14

The first video
Is a provocative one, for sure.

English 10-30-2012 08:02

Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round. In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

The wear issue is unimportant and he misunderstands it. Even if the pistols wear out in, say, 35,000 rounds, the cost of replacing the pistol is small relative to the total cost of ammunition expended. Many people who carry a pistol 12 or more hours a day will think that a saving of 4 to 6 oz or so is a good trade off.

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. Only once the test team was set up did one of the team suggest the inclusion of the 10mm. The idea was agreed to, but, because of the recoil limit, he handloaded all the test rounds to equal the recoil of the .45ACP using a 180gn bullet. By a very small margin that light loading of the 10mm beat the .45ACP but the team said they would be hapy with either.

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow! To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.


Leigh 10-30-2012 08:24

[QUOTE=kaech;19570336]Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!

Actually, no.:upeyes:

1canvas 10-30-2012 08:49

if I was a firearms instructor I would want to shoot a low recoiling 9mm. I haven't seen much difference in recoil when you compare a 9mm+P to a .40 to make that much difference. the difference comes when you compare target amm. 9mm is usually loaded down where the .40 isn't.

SCmasterblaster 10-30-2012 08:57

My next gun will be a G22 (!)

dkf 10-30-2012 09:19

His classes.

SCmasterblaster 10-30-2012 09:21

Is this a link?

Originally Posted by dkf (Post 19570878)

It looks a bit messy.

SCmasterblaster 10-30-2012 09:24

Now the link works. What is that fool doing with a camera at the target line with all of those shooters shooting? :upeyes:

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