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-   -   Chris Costa on HD shotguns and handguns (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447287)

SouthpawG26 10-11-2012 10:14

Chris Costa on HD shotguns and handguns
 
Perhaps a surprising point of view, that he prefers a handgun to the shotgun for home defense.

Many of his reasonings make sense. Food for thought perhaps....

http://www.rem870.com/2012/04/27/ful...h-chris-costa/

jeepinbandit 10-11-2012 10:56

Really good read. Interesting thoughts on the Magpul shotgun line, why he left Magpul, and the ACR.

I've always tried to steer folks away from shotguns when they say they are buying their first Home Defense gun. Especially if they say they are buying it for their wives lol.

samuse 10-11-2012 11:55

I don't understand why anyone would want to use a shotgun for anything besides bird hunting or breaching.

DPris 10-11-2012 12:23

I own three 870s set up for defensive purposes.
None are for house use.

After clearing houses & buildings for several years professionally with ARs, shotguns, and handguns, I found the handgun infinitely easier to work with around corners, blind angles, through doors, up stairways, and anyplace the off hand was temporarily needed (opening doors, closets, moving things out of the way, etc.).

I see no surprise whatever in anybody deciding to go with a handgun vs a shotgun indoors.
Outdoors in more open spaces, that'd be a different matter.
Denis

NeverMore1701 10-11-2012 12:39

I'll never be able to take a man who owns a "ludus" seriously, no matter how much better than me he can shoot.

fnfalman 10-11-2012 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 (Post 19507426)
I'll never be able to take a man who owns a "ludus" seriously, no matter how much better than me he can shoot.

It's corny but it sells, especially to the youth generation.

joecoastie 10-11-2012 13:53

Eh, give it time, there will be a $3000 Costa Gladiator Edition 870.

SouthpawG26 10-11-2012 13:54

On the topic of unconventional advice, both Chris and Travis Haley (and Bill Wilson, for that matter) seem to moving away from tritium night sights to black rears/fiber optic fronts, in conjunction with either flashlight or weaponlight.

Once again I have to say, there may be something to it. I'm surely in the minority on this one, but I have indeed started to question the advantage of tritium sights more and more, based on low light training and shooting experiences...

It boils down to the fact that it needs to be really dark to see the tritium, so dark that you cannot identify a target at 7-10yards out. So you'll need a light for target identification. And once you use a light (flash and move, don't use a WML at anything other than a potential threat yadayadayada..), the tritium is worthless, and you do just as well with conventional black sights.

skew12 10-11-2012 14:31

Good article. Thanks for sharing.

vafish 10-11-2012 15:42

I disagree with what he says, I think shotguns are great for home defense, but I dont have small children anymore, my 2 boys have a gunsafe in their room and even my 13 year old daughter shoots very well with her rifle. Their rooms ar right across the hall from my room so no need for me to be stealthy sneaking around my house.

I'll just let the dogs loose and aim a bit above the barking.

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Boats 10-11-2012 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuse (Post 19507288)
I don't understand why anyone would want to use a shotgun for anything besides bird hunting or breaching.

I was trained to use the 12 ga. combat shotgun for close quarters shipboard clearing by both USMC and Naval instructors.

The cool kids all want to do CQB with carbines these days, because that is where general infantry practice has moved to—fighting with what you are most familiar with and what you are already carrying—but it doesn't invalidate that the pump action shotgun remains pretty damn devastating in that role and that in specialized environments remains the primary in that role.

When we were clearing boarded ships, the guy with the handgun ran point, backed by shotgunners. Overwatch was done with nearby perimeter guys deploying M-14s and backed by the ship mounted belt feds a few hundred meters away. The helo was the eye in the sky. Point being the guys with handguns weren't relying upon it to clear the ship, but to defend one's self against unpleasant surprises behind doors or hatches.

The idea of using merely a handgun for clearing my own house strikes me as volunteering to be under gunned, even when I get to use JHP's. My wife can handle the comms, I am bringing a bigger hammer than a handgun can provide.

Post service, I have remained a defensive shotgunner for the same reason that the US Navy and the Fleet Marine Force remain shotgun heavy—shotguns are fight enders up close.

I am sure that if I dedicated myself to it, and went through the hassle and expense, I could run a suppressed AR or something like that indoors and be "better off" for it, but just as I don't trust handguns when I want someone DRT, I don't trust the 5.56 out of shorter barrels or out of suppressed barrels to be one COM hit show stoppers like 1500 FPS 00 Buck is.

So, as I like 20" ARs, I find both 20" and 18.5" shotguns to be "handier" than the AR, probably because I now have decades behind them. It doesn't matter.

All handguns suck and I remain unconvinced by the CQB prowess of the AR when only one is in play. What am I supposed to use?

Warp 10-11-2012 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthpawG26 (Post 19507708)
It boils down to the fact that it needs to be really dark to see the tritium, so dark that you cannot identify a target at 7-10yards out.

Virtually every single time I pick up my shotgun or one of my pistols to dry-run in my house at night, I can very easily identify targets/target areas yet only see the sites due to the tritium.

I have also shot outside at night where I could identify the target but would not be able to easily see sites that were not their own light source.

Sure, there are times it's too dark to ID a target without a light source. Sure, there are times it's kinda dark and you could see a fiber optic site.

But there are tons of times you can ID the target and the tritium lets you see your sites (or lets you pick them up more quickly)

cowboy1964 10-11-2012 16:10

This is like caliber wars or FMJ vs JHP. People have their minds made up, rightly or wrongly.

The advantages of a handgun are clear. The advantages of a long gun (be it rifle or shotgun) are clear. It's an individual choice.

12131 10-11-2012 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964 (Post 19508145)
This is like caliber wars or FMJ vs JHP. People have their minds made up, rightly or wrongly.

The advantages of a handgun are clear. The advantages of a long gun (be it rifle or shotgun) are clear. It's an individual choice.

About sums it up.

samuse 10-11-2012 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boats (Post 19508087)
All handguns suck and I remain unconvinced by the CQB prowess of the AR when only one is in play. What am I supposed to use?

How 'bout a Ruger Vaquero in 44 mag?

Way shorter and handier than an 870, easier to use with a hand-held light, faster to cock, same capacity...

samuse 10-11-2012 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boats (Post 19508087)
All handguns suck and I remain unconvinced by the CQB prowess of the AR when only one is in play. What am I supposed to use?

How 'bout a Ruger Vaquero in 44 mag?

Way shorter and handier than an 870, easier to use with a hand-held light, can be fired repeatedly with one hand, same capacity...

joecoastie 10-11-2012 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964 (Post 19508145)
This is like caliber wars or FMJ vs JHP. People have their minds made up, rightly or wrongly.

The advantages of a handgun are clear. The advantages of a long gun (be it rifle or shotgun) are clear. It's an individual choice.

Excellent point. It always amazes me how so many people blindly adopt a tactic or piece of gear solely based on what one of the cool kids says. Does Costas have some valid points about shotguns and handguns? Obviously yes. But how many fanboys are dumping their shotguns without evaluating if any of those points are an issue for them?

DeLo 10-11-2012 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthpawG26 (Post 19506991)
Perhaps a surprising point of view, that he prefers a handgun to the shotgun for home defense.

Many of his reasonings make sense. Food for thought perhaps....

http://www.rem870.com/2012/04/27/ful...h-chris-costa/

Suppressed HD pretty impressive.

Cole125 10-11-2012 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuse (Post 19507288)
I don't understand why anyone would want to use a shotgun for anything besides bird hunting or breaching.

Zombies man, zombies. :cool:

A 12g shotgun is the best HD weapon you can get. When I pull the trigger on someone in my house I want them dead on the spot, not wounded with a handgun.

Berto 10-11-2012 20:49

I'll stick with the shotgun, I'm not into clearing buildings and stuff. It's for home protection.

denn1911 10-11-2012 20:55

Although my first choice would be an AR, the shotgun is a devastating long gun. I wouldn't feel under gunned with it for my home.

NeverMore1701 10-11-2012 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by denn1911 (Post 19509461)
Although my first choice would be an AR, the shotgun is a devastating long gun. I wouldn't feel under gunned with it for my home.

AR > shotgun > handgun > rabid weasel on duck taped to a stick for me.

Cole125 10-11-2012 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 (Post 19509475)
AR > shotgun > handgun > rabid weasel on duck taped to a stick for me.

Exactly. Shotgun for in the house, AR for outside the house, handgun for carry.

CDR_Glock 10-11-2012 21:08

He has valid points in his situation. Having a pistol with a light and suppressor will be very easy to maneuver when clearing a house. I have HK USP and a Mark 23 45 ACP, both with lights. However, I prefer a Carbine (Noveske Thunder Ranch with an Aimpoint T1), myself. More firepower, greater effectiveness, longer range, and greater accuracy. It can be fired one handed, if necessary. Follow up shots are much easier. Multiple attackers can be handled, if necessary. It doesn't have an issue with overpenetration as much as a pistol or shotgun.

A shotgun is great but maneuverability is more limited and really requires two hands. Sure you can mount a light but unless you have a clear shot, you'll be creating massive damage in the house - especially if you miss under stress. Problem is what type of spread you're dealing with, at a certain distance.

No single answer is going to fit every single person's household. Not every scenario will fit a single answer, either. Not to try to clear a house, like you're SWAT or Special Warfare, just ensure safety of all.

K.Kiser 10-11-2012 21:08

I have handguns and long guns in position for use in my house, and I'm hesitant to split hairs over perceived advantages... In the even of a life threatening emergency, I'll be ecstatic if I have the ability to gain access to either which will put the offender in serious peril whether it be a handgun or scattergun..

Choose either weapon, have it immediately accessable, be proficient, and don't hesitate... A confident and forthcoming defender of his home will be gravely dangerous even with a semi-auto .22 rifle, and I say that without reservation.. It's certainly not nearly my first choice, but if it's what I can place in hand at a seconds notice the bad guy will have his work cut out for him..


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