Glock Talk

Glock Talk (http://glocktalk.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Glocking (http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19)
-   -   Brass To Face! Gen 4 G17 Ejection Examined (Video) (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446570)

Raleigh Glocker 10-07-2012 01:32

Brass To Face! Gen 4 G17 Ejection Examined (Video)
 
Well, I set out to make a video showing how great the ejection was in my Gen 4 G17. I've had roughly 900 rounds of perfect ejection, with lots of video to prove it on my YouTube channel.

Half way through getting my footage for this video, it happened. I started to get BTF.

I demonstrate the ejection of WWB, Speer Lawman 115gr FMJ, and Ranger T-Series 127gr +p+. Each of them ejected just fine for me previously, but by the time I switched camera angles, they all started to shoot brass into my face.
:faint:

As I show you, this BTF doesn't matter what ammo is being used, and it doesn't matter how you hold the pistol. There is definitely something that has shifted with how this pistol is engaging and ejecting brass, though I can't see anything wrong with the extractor that looks like abnormal wear.

This seems to match the new experience mentioned by others here, where you get great ejection from brand new Gen 4 9mms for a while only to have it end up in your face after 800 rounds or so.

Check it out and see for yourself.


ETA: Here are the companion videos. The slow motion comparison is especially revealing.

Brass Not To Face! Gen 4 G23 Ejection Examined

Slow Motion Glocks! Gen 4 G17 & G23 Ejection Compared

zee90 10-07-2012 01:54

Do you have the updated 043 RSA and 30274 ejector? Also, you mentioned you have an extractor made from the number 2 mold. Was this a pre-Nov 2011 gen4 with the older MiM extractor?

Tiro Fijo 10-07-2012 02:19

A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

packinaglock 10-07-2012 05:01

Good review, this is happening to quite a few people at the 800-1000 round mark. I'm starting to think Gaston pissed off a Gypsy a couple years back and she cursed him. :supergrin:

ricklee4570 10-07-2012 05:11

What is really baffling is the number of cases where people go 1000 troublefree rounds only to have this start. What could be causing this? Everyone keeps changing parts to no avail.

With all the great gunsmiths out there, it is crazy that no surefire solution has been found.

RonS 10-07-2012 05:29

It was interesting to watch how the ejection changed over time. It seemed to me that from in the video @ 6:30 to 6:43 the ejection pattern began to change. The first shots went well clear of the shooters arm to the outside, then a couple fell on the arm, then away again then the trajectory swung to the rear as the gun began to eject up and back instead of to the right.

If I had to bet on the cause I would bet that the ejector is now contacting the case head closer to the center of the case. When I get a chance I think I'll get my 26 out and see how much room there is for the ejector to move or flex. I could easily be completely off base of course.

Raleigh Glocker 10-07-2012 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo (Post 19493033)
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

So, you're saying that I'm breaking my wrists with a two-handed grip moreso than when I'm barely holding the pistol in the first clip and getting normal ejection? Heck, I do the tea cup pinky and all... :dunno:

I've got 24 years shooting Glocks with no brass to face except for the first few boxes I ran through my brand new Gen 4 G23 two years ago. It was known then that the RSA was stiff and needed to be broken in, so it didn't bother me.

I've got countless posts here on Gen 4 threads saying, "Mine eject great, thanks!" I've used that G17 in other videos for my YouTube channel, showing beautiful ejection.

I shot 500 rounds that day out of the G17, giving it every chance to stop ejecting BTF. It did not. Once it started, the ejection kept hitting my shoulder and face and going over my head. I practically choked the brown out of it, and it still sent brass towards my shoulder and head.

As to point "C.", I realize that some just want to see one single clip of only shooting. The video of my Gen 4 G23 I'm finishing today will be more to your liking, I think.

That said, I make the kind of video I like to watch, and luckily, others do, too. I appreciate you taking the time to watch it and comment, though.

Raleigh Glocker 10-07-2012 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonS (Post 19493113)
It was interesting to watch how the ejection changed over time. It seemed to me that from in the video @ 6:30 to 6:43 the ejection pattern began to change. The first shots went well clear of the shooters arm to the outside, then a couple fell on the arm, then away again then the trajectory swung to the rear as the gun began to eject up and back instead of to the right.

If I had to bet on the cause I would bet that the ejector is now contacting the case head closer to the center of the case. When I get a chance I think I'll get my 26 out and see how much room there is for the ejector to move or flex. I could easily be completely off base of course.

It leaves me thinking that the extractor is wearing somehow, but I don't see any wear on it that is different from my other Glocks. I thought I read that some are getting machined extractors from Glock to replace their MIM extractors. I'll see what Glock says when I call them this week.

Raleigh Glocker 10-07-2012 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by zee90 (Post 19493025)
Do you have the updated 043 RSA and 30274 ejector? Also, you mentioned you have an extractor made from the number 2 mold. Was this a pre-Nov 2011 gen4 with the older MiM extractor?

This is a Dark Earth Gen 4 G17 with a test fire date of 3/6/12. It has a 042 RSA and the 30274 ejector. The extractor is clearly a MIM extractor from the #2 mold. I plan to post some good pics on the TWANGnBANG Facebook page and will link here when I do.

I'm not sure why a change in RSA would be needed unless mine already wore out. Heck, the original RSAs were so stiff, they had to be broken in to get rid of the BTF. :)

faawrenchbndr 10-07-2012 06:08

Replace the Gen 4 with an older 3rd Gen........problem solved!
It's what I did.

Fire_Medic 10-07-2012 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker (Post 19493138)
This is a Dark Earth Gen 4 G17 with a test fire date of 3/6/12. It has a 042 RSA and the 30274 ejector. The extractor is clearly a MIM extractor from the #2 mold. I plan to post some good pics on the TWANGnBANG Facebook page and will link here when I do.

I'm not sure why a change in RSA would be needed unless mine already wore out. Heck, the original RSAs were so stiff, they had to be broken in to get rid of the BTF. :)

I started having the same issues at over 2K rounds, crazy stuff huh.

I don't know if it was a typo or not on your behalf, or if it would even help your pistol but the latest RSA is the 0-4-3, which my pistol does have. The latest ejector is the 30274 which my gun also came with. I'm over 3K rounds now so they're sending me a new RSA to try as we'll as a new extractor. I'm curious to see if there will be anything different with the new extractor they're sending me, and if this will change anything. I am anxious to try an Apex extractor on their next run if the new Glock part does not work. Good luck with your pistol, if the new parts are not the fix for me I will be reluctantly sending my gun back to the factory knowing full well they will probably end up replacing it.

faawrenchbndr 10-07-2012 06:34

Gabe,

A while back a few had luck with using a 40 S&W extractor.
How did that work out?

plouffedaddy 10-07-2012 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo (Post 19493033)
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

No you're not.

Moving on... Great video. I had to make a few of these videos myself when I had a problematic G19 (PYU serial number). I have over 20 Glocks that were trouble free and 1 bad one--it wasn't me. In the end Glock replaced it and the replacement has been 100% trouble/issue free.

Raleigh Glocker 10-07-2012 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by plouffedaddy (Post 19493189)
No you're not.

Moving on... Great video. I had to make a few of these videos myself when I had a problematic G19 (PYU serial number). I have over 20 Glocks that were trouble free and 1 bad one--it wasn't me. In the end Glock replaced it and the replacement has been 100% trouble/issue free.

Your vids I think were the first that I saw where anyone claiming you had bad form revealed themselves as wannabes. :) There are a few others out there now that show the same as yours- good form, good ammo, and BTF.

I seriously wanted to do a similar video showing awesome ejection from my trouble-free Gen 4s. Darnit if I wasn't cursed for trying.

Raleigh Glocker 10-07-2012 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire_Medic (Post 19493179)
I started having the same issues at over 2K rounds, crazy stuff huh.

I don't know if it was a typo or not on your behalf, or if it would even help your pistol but the latest RSA is the 0-4-3, which my pistol does have. The latest ejector is the 30274 which my gun also came with. I'm over 3K rounds now so they're sending me a new RSA to try as we'll as a new extractor. I'm curious to see if there will be anything different with the new extractor they're sending me, and if this will change anything. I am anxious to try an Apex extractor on their next run if the new Glock part does not work. Good luck with your pistol, if the new parts are not the fix for me I will be reluctantly sending my gun back to the factory knowing full well they will probably end up replacing it.

Nope. It is indeed a 042 RSA, so I guess that will be replaced with the 043. I will also ask about a new extractor. Did they mention whether they were sending you another MIM extractor or a machined one?

4949shooter 10-07-2012 07:07

Good video.

I would be curious to know what steps Glock is taking to correct these issues, if any. Who knows? Glock inc. might be selling so many pistols that they don't care about the (possibly few) numbers that exhibit BTF.

My guess is that most gun owners don't shoot thousands of rounds through their guns like we do. Typical example...I took my buddy down to the LGS and got him a deal on a Gen 4 G22. We went to the range twice and put a few boxes through it with the gun working great. Now I can't get him to go back to the range unless I twist his arm. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of gun owners fall into this category. A Glock that throws BTF after a thousand rounds will never become an issue for these folks. And Glock keeps selling guns and making money. It's all about $$.

SJ 40 10-07-2012 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker (Post 19493203)
Nope. It is indeed a 042 RSA, so I guess that will be replaced with the 043. I will also ask about a new extractor. Did they mention whether they were sending you another MIM extractor or a machined one?

My understanding is the so called new extractor is still MiMed but with out the dip of the so called dipped MiMed extractor-Old.
Prior to that the extractors were investment cast,I have a 1999 and 2002 that are both machined extractors.
SJ 40

dhgeyer 10-07-2012 07:18

Possible explanation:

In another thread: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1444851 I showed pictures of my home made Spring Loaded Bearing (SLB). JBS asked me if I had noticed wear to the front of the Extractor Depressor Plunger (EDP) where it enters the slide at the front. At first I said no, but on closer examination, yes there was definitely scoring in that location after about 500 rounds. JBS said that he had seen extensive wear in this area on a number of guns. As a result of this I made my own EDP to go with my SLB. In my last picture you can plainly see the wear starting on the factory part. This, if allowed to continue, could definitely cause binding in the action of the extractor. You might want to check your EDP for this.

On second thought, why make you read the entire old thread. Here's the image of the worn EDP along with my home made one. Mine top, factory bottom.

http://www.gallery1700.net/linkto/plunger01.jpg

SJ 40 10-07-2012 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4949shooter (Post 19493239)
Good video.

I would be curious to know what steps Glock is taking to correct these issues, if any. Who knows? Glock inc. might be selling so many pistols that they don't care about the (possibly few) numbers that exhibit BTF.

My guess is that most gun owners don't shoot thousands of rounds through their guns like we do. Typical example...I took my buddy down to the LGS and got him a deal on a Gen 4 G22. We went to the range twice and put a few boxes through it with the gun working great. Now I can't get him to go back to the range unless I twist his arm. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of gun owners fall into this category. A Glock that throws BTF after a thousand rounds will never become an issue for these folks. And Glock keeps selling guns and making money. It's all about $$.

4949 Shooter
I think you have come up with a reasonable theory .
Many gun owners are not shooters as many deer hunters are not shooters.
I know many hunters that may or may not take their rifle to the range to check sights once or twice a year.
Then I know a couple that are practicing different positions,differing ranges all the time looking to improve their shooting.
I suspect the same holds true for Glock owners,shooters.
SJ 40

FFR Spyder GT 10-07-2012 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo (Post 19493033)
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.

+1!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker (Post 19493122)
So, you're saying that I'm breaking my wrists with a two-handed grip moreso than when I'm barely holding the pistol in the first clip and getting normal ejection? Heck, I do the tea cup pinky and all... :dunno:

I've got 24 years shooting Glocks

.

Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.

Sgt127 10-07-2012 07:50

Quote:

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.
If what you say is true, its a pretty damaging argument against Glock. If, during a gunfight, I have to remember to "stand up straight, keep my butt tucked in, not wear gloves and keep a two handed, locked wrist grip on my Glock", its not really a gun I want to defend myself with.

The OP's technique looked fine to me, the gun should run without a problem, I've seen MUCH worse.

SPIN2010 10-07-2012 07:57

Pretty good video! Very rare that you caught a failure in action.

(IMHO) If you cannot shoot with gloves, there is a real problem ... good luck in the winter or real engagement. Also, if you cannot shoot a "Combat" pistol in "ANY" position there is a serious issue with the gun (hold on Mr. Enemy I need to stand up and get in a proper position. :upeyes:)

Glock definately has changed the manufacturing procedure somewhere, but one would think that a test engineer (@ Glock) would have been all over it. Maybe Glock has joined the same apathetic engineering line that is molded by the bottom line as many companies have in the last decade.

Scary, for Glock.

RonS 10-07-2012 07:58

If a Glock will not function properly because a shooter is wearing gloves or not standing up straight then maybe we know why the US military bought the M9.

Raleigh Glocker 10-07-2012 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT (Post 19493287)
+1!




Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.

So, as long as you:
1. Don't wear gloves.
2. Stand up straight.
3. Grip a Glock with the "Glock Perfection" grip...

...you won't get BTF. :)

Regardless of what you think about 1-3 above, 24 years of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF until now (with one noted exception). 900 rounds of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF with this very gun. It also somehow doesn't happen when I shoot my Gen 2 G20, Gen 4 G23, USP40, P9C, 1911, Colt Anaconda... (OK, so it's hard to get BTF with the last one unless you try) :)

Something changed that day, and if it was me, then jeez, what will happen if I'm ever staring down someone else's barrel again and have to take off my gloves (if I'm wearing any), stand up straight, and get that perfect grip to avoid getting hot brass in the eye. Do you really expect that all of the LEOs out there armed with Glocks will be able to produce this grip that you're talking about in a time of need?

I will post more video of me shooting that day without BTF with that very gun on my Facebook page for those who are interested and link here once its done.

ETA: Wow! It looks like a few of us had the same reaction and were posting at the same time. :)

ithaca_deerslayer 10-07-2012 08:04

RG, at around 10:00 you have good video showing the true problem. Eratic ejection :)

The reason grip doesn't matter is because there is not some linear relationship of fast side equals right side, and slower slide equals straight up, and slow slide equal left ejection.

Instead, I believe it was English here on GT who pointed out the randomness of it. Something (unclear to any of us) is allowing the exracted brass to be loose and bouncing around on its way out. There has even been super slow motion video showing this. Most of the time bounce goes out to the right, but sometimes it bounces and goes out to your face. This almost like drooping an empty shell on the ground and seeing how it bounces. Most of the time it will lay down, but sometimes it will bounce in a way that stands the shell up when done.

The problem is, in theory, a bounce during ejection will by chance cause a stovepipe or other jam. But perhaps due to the overall design of the Glock, this does not seem to happen. Doesn't seem to be reported. I had 1 stovepipe in my first 20 rounds of my g4 17. Then no problems but some brass to the face in the first 200 rounds. Then very few, almost none, brass to the face in the next couple thousand rounds and current.

I have scrape marks on my brass near the open end, about the width of a pencil tip. Not dented much, but some. I have brass marks on the top right front of the ejection port (looking as you would point the gun forward), just inside the port (not on the outside of the slide).

So bouncing goes on with my gun's ejection. I would rate my ejection, and overall performance of the gun, as an A. Guess it'd be an A+ if no scrapes on the shell and no brass marks on the port.

My guess is something wore on your gun to make the ejection even more bouncy and eratic. If Win white box shells were made of abrassive material like a type of sandpaper, and you shot a couple boxes of them, and then your ejection got worse, and brass to the face started, that would make sense. I've never shot white box in mine.

While shells are not sandpaper, maybe some sort of wear has happened, and the bounce has gotten worse. Or maybe something happened to the recoil spring and slide speed changed. Grip changes slide speed, but usually not much. Maybe a big change (weakening through use, or other kind of change), in the recoil spring has changed slide speed more than grip. A light attached changes slide speed.

So either wear in the ejection parts, or a change in the slide speed, have created a bigger bounce in your ejection, and introduced even more randomness than there was before.

I get the sense the cost of the gun isn't much to you. So, leave Glock out of it. Play with the variables yourself. I challenge you in the name of backyard shooting science to see if you can fix the problem.

These are some variables to change one at a time (and then unchange to go on to the next variable). All the while shooting Lawman 124gr :)
-- clening the parts real good (let get dirty again to undo the change)
-- take the light off
-- new recoil spring
-- new extractor
-- new ejector.

Have faith in science, and that you can fix it. The gun is probably not possesed. The slide is probably ok, itself. The frame is probably ok. But other parts have worn and you can find out which one.

:)


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 23:17.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2013, Glock Talk, All Rights Reserved.