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-   -   Keyholing DoubleTap 357Sig (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1445554)

ABNAK 09-30-2012 18:09

Keyholing DoubleTap 357Sig
 
DoubleTap 357Sig rounds (*supposedly* 125gr Sierras but don't look like Sierras) that I personally chrono'd at 1452fps average. However, the ES was 154fps. Maybe that's why the ES was so high, not to mention the accuracy sucking?

What would cause a handgun bullet to keyhole?

Now, before you ask, I checked to rule out barrel causes. I have both a Glock 32 factory barrel as well as a 4" Storm Lake drop-in barrel and it keyholed with both. Checked again by using Cor Bon Sierras, Buffalo Bore GD, and Speer GD, which all gave nice round holes. The DT was in the perfect outline of a bullet profile with just about every round.

More than a little disappointed by DT, as many here have been. Not the velocity in this case but perhaps even worse.





So, just out of curiosity, what would a tumbling 125gr bullet at 1452fps do ballisitcs-wise? No doubt it wouldn't act like a normal HP would, but would it be destructive? Hell, might as well be a tumbling FMJ in that case.

Foxtrotx1 09-30-2012 18:12

Stay away from the boutique ammo.

ABNAK 09-30-2012 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 (Post 19472215)
Stay away from the boutique ammo.


Unfortunately, they're the only ones who don't water down the 357Sig to mid-1300's. It was designed to replicate the .357 Magnum in it's 125gr loading, and 1350+/- is quite a bit short of that.

But yeah, I'm done with DT.

dkf 09-30-2012 18:16

Pull a bullet and measure the diameter with a micrometer. Also look at the amount of crimp on the bullet, should be a slight ring around the bullet with no deformation. Undersized bullet are known to cause stability issues. If the bullets were not Sierras they may be Montana Gold JHPs. Montana Gold usually has quality bullet however their JHP rounds are more for target practice and not SD IMO. Post some pics if you got them.

ABNAK 09-30-2012 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkf (Post 19472224)
Pull a bullet and measure the diameter with a micrometer. Also look at the amount of crimp on the bullet, should be a slight ring around the bullet with no deformation. Undersized bullet are known to cause stability issues. If the bullets were not Sierras they may be Montana Gold JHPs. Montana Gold usually has quality bullet however their JHP rounds are more for target practice and not SD IMO. Post some pics if you got them.

They're not Montana Golds as they don't have that "gold" color. They almost look like Winchester 125gr bullets. Will post a pic soon.

ABNAK 09-30-2012 19:02

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...keyhole011.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...keyhole013.jpg

You can clearly see the difference in the holes (through a cheap hibachi I had in the garage that I knew would show it more decisively than paper). The two DT's are obvious, the other 3 are the BB GD, Speer GD, and CB Sierra.

The bullet on the right is a Cor Bon 125gr Sierra (from back before they made their own bullets like they do now). The one on the left is the *supposed* Sierra loaded by DoubleTap. It's easy to see the DT is NOT a Sierra.

I don't have a bullet puller so I can mic it.

dkf 09-30-2012 21:33

Yeah they look like Winchester or Remington JHP. I checked their site and they are using Winchester or Remington JHP on other calibers. Seems kinda typical from DT for the last few years. You do not know what you are going to get.

The 115gr Winchester JHP, just slightly shorter than the 124gr. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/139...d-hollow-point

With Winchesters quality over the past couple years I would not be surprised if the bullet is undersized. I pulled a bullet out of WWB .357sig ammo and miced the bullet and it measured .353".

The description does say Sierra but the bullets in the pic sure do not look like Sierras. Guess if you want them right you have to load them yourself.:dunno:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=395

unit1069 09-30-2012 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 (Post 19472215)
Stay away from the boutique ammo.


Yes, that's good advice. I've had both good luck and bad luck with boutique ammo. I'd be dollars ahead had I just stuck with quality American-made ammo and a few foreign rounds like Sellier & Bellot.

The boutique rounds that have worked for me are really no improvement over the big US ammo companies' offerings and typically cost more.

SCmasterblaster 10-01-2012 09:29

I would inspect the suspect bullet's diameter, as others have said.

ABNAK 10-01-2012 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19473882)
I would inspect the suspect bullet's diameter, as others have said.

I'll pull one with my buddies bullet puller and mic it later today (hopefully).

SCmasterblaster 10-01-2012 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABNAK (Post 19474318)
I'll pull one with my buddies bullet puller and mic it later today (hopefully).

I would think it unlikely that the bullets are undersized, but that would account for the keyholing . . . .

avenues165 10-01-2012 19:36

From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.

SCmasterblaster 10-02-2012 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by avenues165 (Post 19475815)
From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.

If a 125 does that, my 115gr WW JHP +p+ would fragment even worse. :upeyes:

dkf 10-02-2012 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by avenues165 (Post 19475815)
From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.

I believe it, especially at over 1400fps.

SCmasterblaster 10-02-2012 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkf (Post 19477834)
I believe it, especially at over 1400fps.

My 9mmP 115gr +p+ JHP is doing just over 1400 FPS, and I do expect that the bullet would fragment. :shocked:

avenues165 10-02-2012 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19478532)
My 9mmP 115gr +p+ JHP is doing just over 1400 FPS, and I do expect that the bullet would fragment. :shocked:

I'll bet your fine with your load. The 115gr +p+ supposedly has a great street record (I can state for certain because I have not seen the data). The Fed 9BPLE (9mm 115gr +p+) gives fragmentation in gel but also has good penetration, the petals come off and the majority of the bullet weight keeps on going. That load showed a wound cavity in gel that rivals those of 357 sig. Watch it on TNOutdoors9's youtube site.

I am not at all opposed to a little fragmentation, but my experience with that particular bullet in the WWB 125gr 357 sig is that it blows apart after hitting one jug. Just too much fragmentation. I'll see if I can get a photo taken of the wrecked bullet I have from WWB 125gr 357 sig after one water jug. What a mess! I do love it for killing water jugs and bottles, very reactive targets!

avenues165 10-02-2012 21:24

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 228084

Here is a photo of the bullet in question and a few others.

SCmasterblaster 10-03-2012 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by avenues165 (Post 19479479)
Attachment 228084

Here is a photo of the bullet in question and a few others.

Just look at that .357 Sig! It is no surprise that it has such a wicked rep.

Tiro Fijo 10-03-2012 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by avenues165 (Post 19479419)
...I am not at all opposed to a little fragmentation, but my experience with that particular bullet in the WWB 125gr 357 sig is that it blows apart after hitting one jug. Just too much fragmentation...


Water jugs? Expecting to fight Aqua Man? Water jugs are worse than worthless for determining what a bullet will do in a body. What's with the Wally World defense ammo? Surely, you can afford a $30 box of quality defense ammo in .357 SIG. Buy a box of quality ammo and call it a day.

dkf 10-03-2012 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by avenues165 (Post 19479479)
Attachment 228084

Here is a photo of the bullet in question and a few others.

Squish...

Was the jacket on that 125gr JHP still hanging on or is it loose from the core.


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