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-   -   Why I am okay with guns and ammo being expensive. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444981)

randr1979 09-27-2012 01:35

Why I am okay with guns and ammo being expensive.
 
Why I am okay with guns and ammo being expensive.


Going through Cabelas and Brownells I can't help but notice that we Filipinos (minimum wage $1.33/hr) pay two to three times the price people in the USA (minimum wage $7.25/hr) pay for their guns and ammo. Add to that an average of P5,500.00 for licensing, tax and bond, etc. and you are easily paying more than two times what a person in the USA would pay to legally acquire a similar firearm.

I am ok with this.

I am not rich, I barely make ends meet on most days but I understand why having firearms priced high and also requiring rather huge fees for licensing and the granting of carry permits are a good thing.

Drug testing proves nothing, it just says (assuming proper reagents are actually used on the test) you did not have drugs on your system at the time you took the test. Methamphetamine clears up in 48 hours, Marijuana maybe three or four times that duration. Neuro psychiatric evaluations (if actually administered to the applicant) prove next to nothing, it just assures the government that the gun is not going to be handed over to an imbecile (some might debate this).

What are we left with? Cost. The high price of guns and ammo gives a certain level of assurance to society at large that only those who have given it considerable thought will actually go through with their intention to purchase a firearm. Even a relatively rich person will think more than once about spending P45,000.00 to buy a Glock, possibly even more for higher priced brands. Having guns in the hands of people who think about their actions first is more than likely a good thing.

If guns could be had cheaply and on impulse I would expect the rate of hotheaded people shooting at other people would go up, especially in over crowded places like Metro Manila.

Some gun aficionados at times complain that we are getting robbed of our hard earned pesos because of the exhorbitant prices we have to pay to continue and enjoy our passion legally. Everytime similar thoughts come to mind I just imagine the hordes of mostly uneducated and discorteous people who operate dirty diesel powered public conveyances, most of which would not be considered roadworthy if they were to be actually inspected (both the vehicle and operator) and then I imagine, what if this person could actually afford to arm himself with something more potent than a tire iron? I then gladly hand over the P3,000.00 (which is easily a third of what I make every two weeks) to the nice lady at the counter just so I can have another 30 rounds in my magazine for my rifle.

Angry Fist 09-27-2012 01:47

The price to be paid to be armed and be able to defend you and your family is irrelevant. It must be paid, or circumvented. Family comes first!. Some states in the USA make it hard to do that in the most efficient of ways. I couldn't imagine having to take a psych eval to have weapons.

goodtj 09-27-2012 03:33

i beg to differ i'll say its just mostly true but there are alot of poor but decent people also...

in cavite, zamboanga and jolo pistols and revolvers can be had for as cheap as 2500 pesos which are unlicensed most are paltiks, vintage or stolen guns yet in these poor areas you don't hear people poking guns at each other at the first hint of trouble but when crap hits the fan everyone is taking pot shots at the offending party and you wonder where was he hiding that m2 carbine in his tricycle

LexaDoig 09-28-2012 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by randr1979 (Post 19460332)
Why I am okay with guns and ammo being expensive.


Going through Cabelas and Brownells I can't help but notice that we Filipinos (minimum wage $1.33/hr) pay two to three times the price people in the USA (minimum wage $7.25/hr) pay for their guns and ammo. Add to that an average of P5,500.00 for licensing, tax and bond, etc. and you are easily paying more than two times what a person in the USA would pay to legally acquire a similar firearm.

I am ok with this.

I am not rich, I barely make ends meet on most days but I understand why having firearms priced high and also requiring rather huge fees for licensing and the granting of carry permits are a good thing.

Drug testing proves nothing, it just says (assuming proper reagents are actually used on the test) you did not have drugs on your system at the time you took the test. Methamphetamine clears up in 48 hours, Marijuana maybe three or four times that duration. Neuro psychiatric evaluations (if actually administered to the applicant) prove next to nothing, it just assures the government that the gun is not going to be handed over to an imbecile (some might debate this).

What are we left with? Cost. The high price of guns and ammo gives a certain level of assurance to society at large that only those who have given it considerable thought will actually go through with their intention to purchase a firearm. Even a relatively rich person will think more than once about spending P45,000.00 to buy a Glock, possibly even more for higher priced brands. Having guns in the hands of people who think about their actions first is more than likely a good thing.

If guns could be had cheaply and on impulse I would expect the rate of hotheaded people shooting at other people would go up, especially in over crowded places like Metro Manila.

Some gun aficionados at times complain that we are getting robbed of our hard earned pesos because of the exhorbitant prices we have to pay to continue and enjoy our passion legally. Everytime similar thoughts come to mind I just imagine the hordes of mostly uneducated and discorteous people who operate dirty diesel powered public conveyances, most of which would not be considered roadworthy if they were to be actually inspected (both the vehicle and operator) and then I imagine, what if this person could actually afford to arm himself with something more potent than a tire iron? I then gladly hand over the P3,000.00 (which is easily a third of what I make every two weeks) to the nice lady at the counter just so I can have another 30 rounds in my magazine for my rifle.


ok so going by your reasoning, lets up the ante. how about 1M per pistol, 2M per rifle. and only for people with at least a Master's Degree. and must own at least one car, at least one house, and at least 15M in assets. smart people won't use the gun for a crime, right? :whistling:

how does it feel if you're excluded? :whistling:

nope it doesn't work that way. you're simply denying good people access to guns. goodtj is right, paltiks and zip guns are cheap. the more you artificially raise prices, the more you'll have a thriving illegal gun market

SGT HATRED 09-28-2012 02:41

So only rich thugs can afford a gun? Your scenario is full of holes imho.

Allegra 09-28-2012 04:55

Dito naman sating mahal na bayan , if you want/need a gun you can get one

STILL, my point din si TS
I think the FED knows this , and it's ok w/ them too
Baka they compare the crime stats from the A,B,C,D areas
Heck, walk the streets ng metro manila kung san nakatira ang ABC and D and imagine they are all armed, where'd you want to live?

I'd rather live in a town w/ highly educated people ( like my hometown )
Yan ang pinaka safe kahit puro kami poor

Brian Lee 09-28-2012 14:46

So much for self defense among Filipinos.

I wouldn't be OK with it if guns were that expensive in the USA. And knowing how much a guy paid for his over priced gun would do absolutely nothing to convince me that he is even one percent more responsible or honest than the guy who couldn't afford to buy one.

JuneyBooney 09-29-2012 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGT HATRED (Post 19463387)
So only rich thugs can afford a gun? Your scenario is full of holes imho.

Sounds correct. :whistling:

DocBob 09-29-2012 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexaDoig (Post 19463384)
ok so going by your reasoning, lets up the ante. how about 1M per pistol, 2M per rifle. and only for people with at least a Master's Degree. and must own at least one car, at least one house, and at least 15M in assets. smart people won't use the gun for a crime, right? :whistling:

how does it feel if you're excluded? :whistling:

nope it doesn't work that way. you're simply denying good people access to guns. goodtj is right, paltiks and zip guns are cheap. the more you artificially raise prices, the more you'll have a thriving illegal gun market

Bro, IMHO, price has got nothing to do with deciding whether a gun owner is a responsible person or not. It has been 'proven' by past events that the 'haves' have their share of injudicious use of the gun to intimidate, maim and kill - as their 'have-not' counterparts have (albeit, with more expensive guns and bullets). Moreover, Elitism has never been the playmate of the masses.

LexaDoig 09-29-2012 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBob (Post 19466902)
Bro, IMHO, price has got nothing to do with deciding whether a gun owner is a responsible person or not.



dude that's exactly what im saying LOL

randr1979 09-29-2012 07:30

furthermore
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LexaDoig (Post 19463384)
ok so going by your reasoning, lets up the ante. how about 1M per pistol, 2M per rifle. and only for people with at least a Master's Degree. and must own at least one car, at least one house, and at least 15M in assets. smart people won't use the gun for a crime, right? :whistling:

how does it feel if you're excluded? :whistling:


nope it doesn't work that way. you're simply denying good people access to guns. goodtj is right, paltiks and zip guns are cheap. the more you artificially raise prices, the more you'll have a thriving illegal gun market


i don't see how the prices you stated as examples could become true, at least not within the foreseeable future. I am not going to discuss hypothetical prices which are in my opinion, absurd.

I have actually given this much thought, I am leaning towards advocating for an educational attainment requirement to firearm ownership. At the very least prove that applicants can fully comprehend the user's manual and the laws on firearms. As the law is written today, there actually is a property value (or size) requirement, but we circumvent that somehow. I am not sure on the provisions but caliber and number of firearms allowed is tied to size of one's property. This I am not so keen on. Even a person renting a small pad will have something(someone) to protect.

People with that much assets in their name most likely have better than average self control and ability to delay gratification. if they didn't they most likely would have frittered it all away in no time.

if i am excluded and i really want to be included then i must figure out a way to meet the minimum requirement. guns are not for everybody.


yes it does work that way right now (i have yet to meet tricycle drivers, magbabaluts, magtataho type people at my gun club), but that is not what is being discussed. perhaps you would like it to be some other way, i respect that. cheapest legally acquired gun in the market would be an armscor 38spl, 11 grand plus anoher 6 grand for licensing, this is todays price. any hardworking honest person can come up with 17 grand, at least within a year or two at most. nobody who is truly deserving is being deprived. how cheap do you want it to be? how easy do you want it to acquire ba?

you are correct that high prices for legal guns make buying cheaper illegal ones more attractive (if available), not a perfect world.

my opinion is unchanged however i must say it was truly a pleasure reading your response and spending time to craft mine in return.

Allegra 09-29-2012 09:06

I see a direct correlation between responsibility and shooting skill
The higher the skill , the higher the discipline
You dont see many blackbelts beating people up
Ganun din mga shooters ( wag lang may mental problem )
I've even heard some shooters say ayaw nila mapa away , baka magalit kapwa shooters nila if guns are blamed

glock_19guy1983 09-29-2012 09:20

With an attitude like that, no wonder you people have been conquered so much, you make the french look like badasses:rofl::rofl:

SGT HATRED 09-29-2012 09:26

Randr 1000 of your "dollars" = how many american dollars?

randr1979 09-29-2012 09:39

prices
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBob (Post 19466902)
Bro, IMHO, price has got nothing to do with deciding whether a gun owner is a responsible person or not. It has been 'proven' by past events that the 'haves' have their share of injudicious use of the gun to intimidate, maim and kill - as their 'have-not' counterparts have (albeit, with more expensive guns and bullets). Moreover, Elitism has never been the playmate of the masses.

at this point i can not yet give any evidence as to what degree the high price of legally acquired guns and ammo is preventing it from getting into the wrong hands. the only thing that is certain is that it is keeping it off the hands of the poor and perpetually broke. we might never really know, too many factors in play.

all i am saying is that i am more comfortable that it is relatively expensive rather than cheap (even if it means that i get to practice live fire less often). i believe that the relatively high price means the chances are greater that people who purchase it legally have given it more thought rather than less.

i don't think guns are priced beyond the reach of the wage earner, and i never said that i want it to be. as long as one is engaged in gainful employment or enterprise, disciplined enough to save some of what they make, not spend too much on non essentials like alcohol and cigarettes (or other drugs), and perhaps more importantly keep the number of mouths they must feed to a manageable amount, i don't see how they can not come up with the 17 grand necessary for a brand new armscor 38 spl revolver.

lack of funds due to inability to control the desire to engage in any of the mentioned cash draining activities shows a certain degree of incapability to control impulse and delay gratification (both characteristics incompatible with firearm ownership in my mind). This is where the significant price of guns and ammo acts as a welcome control on who gets to arm up and who has no other choice but to make do with something like say, a tire iron.

Allegra 09-29-2012 10:10

parang mala malcolm gladwell ang arguments mo a :)

randr1979 09-29-2012 10:13

correlation / causation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allegra (Post 19467463)
I see a direct correlation between responsibility and shooting skill
The higher the skill , the higher the discipline
You dont see many blackbelts beating people up
Ganun din mga shooters ( wag lang may mental problem )
I've even heard some shooters say ayaw nila mapa away , baka magalit kapwa shooters nila if guns are blamed

oo naman, mahirap gumising ng maaga, mag drive all the way to marikina/clark/karingal, and practice weekend after weekend to make the it even to the top ten position sa match ha. dedication talaga and discipline.

legal gun owners are quite a pleasant and well behaved lot, nicest people i know are all legal firearm holders. though i must admit i also know some legal firearm holders with less than savoury attitudes and behaviour.

randr1979 09-29-2012 10:19

i am flattered
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allegra (Post 19467673)
parang mala malcolm gladwell ang arguments mo a :)

you really think so? i'm flattered. i do give in to reading gladwell once in a while, purely for entertainment. my library is quite eclectic. language is beautiful.

MrGlock21 09-29-2012 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by randr1979 (Post 19460332)
...
If guns could be had cheaply and on impulse I would expect the rate of hotheaded people shooting at other people would go up, especially in over crowded places like Metro Manila.

....


Shooting per se is not the problem.

It doesn't matter who shoots whom as long as the good guys kill the bad guys.

I don't know about Manila these days, but again, if the good guys whack the bad ones....

Point being, in a free society you have a free market and the right to defend yourself.

That would typically put the price of a well functioning SD firearm in the equivalent range of the expense of 50 loaf of bread. Legally.

LexaDoig 09-30-2012 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by randr1979 (Post 19467214)
i don't see how the prices you stated as examples could become true, at least not within the foreseeable future. I am not going to discuss hypothetical prices which are in my opinion, absurd.

I have actually given this much thought, I am leaning towards advocating for an educational attainment requirement to firearm ownership. At the very least prove that applicants can fully comprehend the user's manual and the laws on firearms. As the law is written today, there actually is a property value (or size) requirement, but we circumvent that somehow. I am not sure on the provisions but caliber and number of firearms allowed is tied to size of one's property. This I am not so keen on. Even a person renting a small pad will have something(someone) to protect.

People with that much assets in their name most likely have better than average self control and ability to delay gratification. if they didn't they most likely would have frittered it all away in no time.

if i am excluded and i really want to be included then i must figure out a way to meet the minimum requirement. guns are not for everybody.


yes it does work that way right now (i have yet to meet tricycle drivers, magbabaluts, magtataho type people at my gun club), but that is not what is being discussed. perhaps you would like it to be some other way, i respect that. cheapest legally acquired gun in the market would be an armscor 38spl, 11 grand plus anoher 6 grand for licensing, this is todays price. any hardworking honest person can come up with 17 grand, at least within a year or two at most. nobody who is truly deserving is being deprived. how cheap do you want it to be? how easy do you want it to acquire ba?

you are correct that high prices for legal guns make buying cheaper illegal ones more attractive (if available), not a perfect world.

my opinion is unchanged however i must say it was truly a pleasure reading your response and spending time to craft mine in return.



bro it may seem absurd now but if more people start thinking like you do that could actually become a reality :(

the only reason we can have guns and carry is because the government gets a lot of money from it i.e. mere privilege, we actually just rent these guns from the gov't. so if the gov't started to go with your logic, they'd say that in order to solve this "gun problem" they simply have to raise the rent :( the higher the rent, the more bad guys you filter out. that's your logic right?

you say you're ok with prices being artificially high but where do you draw the line? 2x? 3x? 100x? at what point do you think that you'll start filtering out the good guys intead? good people who don't make a lot of money...

you want more restrictive gun laws thinking that will solve our "gun problem" yet are completely missing the point just like our politicians. YOU ARE ONLY RESTRICTING LEGAL GUN OWNERS. criminal dude just grabs a gun from a security guard to buys one cheap from the black market

you think all your restrictions could have filtered out *****holes like allan bantilles? rolito go? they've got money and property so they must have tons of self-control right :upeyes: hehehe. mas mayaman, mas mayabang.

meanwhile a good family man will have to sacrifice a few things just to afford that artificially-inflated armscor revolver just to have the means to defend his family :upeyes:

LexaDoig 09-30-2012 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allegra (Post 19467463)
I see a direct correlation between responsibility and shooting skill
The higher the skill , the higher the discipline
You dont see many blackbelts beating people up
Ganun din mga shooters ( wag lang may mental problem )
I've even heard some shooters say ayaw nila mapa away , baka magalit kapwa shooters nila if guns are blamed


this makes more sense

DocBob 09-30-2012 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexaDoig (Post 19467000)
dude that's exactly what im saying LOL

LOL my bad! (Or my browser's fault).

But I was actually quoting you because I agreed 110% with your premise (and, with Sgt Hatred's viewpoint, as well).

P.S. Tried to edit the post immediately after making it but my browser somehow wouldn't allow it.

randr1979 09-30-2012 10:30

lines drawn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LexaDoig (Post 19469958)
the higher the rent, the more bad guys you filter out. that's your logic right?

yes, you understand it perfectly, hitting the nail on the head. i would change the word "bad" to "unqualified" though. i will explain further why this is the case.*

yes, the higher the rent (or entrance fee) the fewer badly behaved folks in general. applies to housing, parks, malls, clubs, movie houses, transportation, hotels, restaurants, internet forums, churches and strip clubs as well.

Quote:


you say you're ok with prices being artificially high but where do you draw the line? 2x? 3x? 100x? at what point do you think that you'll start filtering out the good guys intead? good people who don't make a lot of money...

if i must draw a line then i would say that i draw the line when a minimum wage earner saving 10% of his income so he can buy a firearm can not afford one after two years of saving. not that any lines i draw would ever actually mean anything to our rulers but since you asked that's my reply

i started saving for my first piece at 17 and by 21 i was able to afford a brand new german made autoloader. ate a lot of pancit canton and tuna in college but the sacrifice was worth it.

as it stands right now, minimum wage workers need to work around 16 months while saving 10% each month towards a gun to be able to raise 17,000 (this is if they just save and not invest at all and doesn't even take into account their 13th month pay, tips, sideline income, etcetera.)

formula i used:

P17000[cost of gun and license]/(1.33[hourly wage in usd]*42[convert to peso]*8[hours a day worked]*24[days a month worked]*.1[percent saved]) = 15.850638501 months and you got yourself a licensed piece.

i'd like to repeat my question that you have left unanswered. how cheap do you want guns to be? (also may i add, how did you arrive at that figure?) how easy would you like the process of acquiring one to be? why?

Quote:


you want more restrictive gun laws thinking that will solve our "gun problem" yet are completely missing the point just like our politicians. YOU ARE ONLY RESTRICTING LEGAL GUN OWNERS. criminal dude just grabs a gun from a security guard to buys one cheap from the black market

i don't want more restrictions, i am fed up with some of the restrictions actually.

i did mention that i am leaning towards advocating for requiring some tangible proof that applicants fully understand user manuals and the laws governing the particular kind of firearm they are to purchase including proper conduct when in personal possession of said firearm. this will of course be seen as a restriction but probably only by the illiterate and the lazy.

i am not into restricting qualified gun owners, for example i am actually an advocate of issue the PTC to the person not the weapon, ito talaga milking the cow na kasi.

the "criminal dude" who would gun grab has nothing to do with this discussion. the cost of legal guns can not have any appreciable effect on people who will acquire it illegally anyway.

black market guns are not always cheaper. in my experience they tend to be more expensive even, especially if you consider the quality that can be had for say, 17,000 pesos. armscor vs some anonymous guy on buyandsell with an as is where is danaoteeneleven.

Quote:


you think all your restrictions could have filtered out *****holes like allan bantilles? rolito go? they've got money and property so they must have tons of self-control right :upeyes: hehehe. mas mayaman, mas mayabang.

no, i do not think that. any system can and will be fooled from time to time.


* (of rent and logic)
as promised earlier, here is the explanation. it's a matter of figures and ratios. of course there are bad eggs in the ranks of the wealthy, and surely you will agree that there also are bad eggs in the ranks of the poor and all those in between.

which do you think is correct? (N being the number of people in that category, the letters a,b,c, and d being the classic "class" categories)

1.) N(a) + N(b) > N(c) + N(d)

or

2.) N(a) + N(b) < N(c) + N(d)











(correct answer is 2)

even if the incidence rate of bad eggs per 100 people is the same across all sectors, say two percent, you will always end up with more armed unqualified (bad?) people by making it easily available to the lower classes, always.

at present, there simply is just too many of them.

------------------------------------------------------------

i resorted to mathematical formulas for conciseness, and also for Allegra, he seems to enjoy Gladwell type writing and I am happy to oblige.

glockaddiction 09-30-2012 14:28

My mother is filipino. I've been there in the past . Over there some of the poorest are the best people i have ever met. The ones with money have been the worst. Money is the root of all evil over there. The coruption is unreal. I know first hand how money saves the evil other there and no justice will be done because of some people were paid off. I think god I live in the US. We may have are issues here but we can protect your family no matter how poor or rich we are.

Allegra 09-30-2012 17:12

It's not so bad :) I cant imagine living anywhere else....well mykonos , greece maybe
Just stay out of the urban areas

i'm curious why ang mahal ng ptc.
considering they can revoke it anytime politicians/pnp chief wants to revoke the privelage
I think they ( pnp ) wil make more money if more people could afford it or think it's worth the gastos


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