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-   -   180g Hor XTP data 800x??? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1435269)

walrus108 07-31-2012 23:47

180g Hor XTP data 800x???
 
I have some new Win brass, 800x, WLP and 180g XTP bullets to load. I'm starting to regret my choice in bullets. I am having trouble finding a reasonable starting point for this weight bullet. I'd like to choose a charge weight that will get me @1200fps, and call it good. The problem is, the numbers i find are all over the place for any similar weight bullets. Has this powder changed a ton over the years? I've seen load data listing 8.4g 800x to 10+g, all for 180gr bullets and all very near 1200fps.

So far, I was thinking of taking a shot in the dark and starting at 9.4g. does this seem reasonable? Starting weights for this powder seem all over the place and data using this specific bullet is very limited. Where should I start? Anyone have a safe load developed, for the 180g XTP, that will give about 1200fps? I shouldn't even be close flirting with max pressure with a load like that, so if I could just get there, I'd at least be somewhere. I'd hate to have to just load these for 40!

I also have power pistol, Bluedot, and unique to work with. Anyone want to share some loads using those powders? I plan on using these XTP's with working up to 10.2 grains Blue Dot?

_The_Shadow 08-01-2012 08:18

walrus108, the 180 gr XTP's are slightly shorter and lighter than the 200 XTP's, having said that, I shoot the 200XTP's over the 9.4 grain loading of 800X to yield 1240 fps, I would say you could start with that loading for the 180 grain Hornady XTP's also.

I also shot the Blue Dot at 10.5 grains for the 200XTP's that yielded 1180-1200 fps from a 5" S&W1006.

The Power Pistol for the 200XTP's I load to 8.0 grains for 1180-1200 fps

I hand weigh my charges only, althought 800X powder dropped well from the RCBS Uniflow hopper.

Good luck with you loading!

walrus108 08-01-2012 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by _The_Shadow (Post 19258928)
walrus108, the 180 gr XTP's are slightly shorter and lighter than the 200 XTP's, having said that, I shoot the 200XTP's over the 9.4 grain loading of 800X to yield 1240 fps, I would say you could start with that loading for the 180 grain Hornady XTP's also.

I also shot the Blue Dot at 10.5 grains for the 200XTP's that yielded 1180-1200 fps from a 5" S&W1006.

The Power Pistol for the 200XTP's I load to 8.0 grains for 1180-1200 fps

I hand weigh my charges only, althought 800X powder dropped well from the RCBS Uniflow hopper.

Good luck with you loading!


Thanks for that Shadow. I appreciate that you're always willing to help out. I've ran into quite a few of your post on various sites that were invaluable to me starting out. Very cool!

I think I'll make a few starting at 9.4 and go up a tenth at a time to 9.7g with 800x and see what I get. Should be well in the safety zone.

Taterhead 08-01-2012 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by walrus108 (Post 19258235)
I have some new Win brass, 800x, WLP and 180g XTP bullets to load. I'm starting to regret my choice in bullets. I am having trouble finding a reasonable starting point for this weight bullet. I'd like to choose a charge weight that will get me @1200fps, and call it good. The problem is, the numbers i find are all over the place for any similar weight bullets. Has this powder changed a ton over the years? I've seen load data listing 8.4g 800x to 10+g, all for 180gr bullets and all very near 1200fps.

So far, I was thinking of taking a shot in the dark and starting at 9.4g. does this seem reasonable? Starting weights for this powder seem all over the place and data using this specific bullet is very limited. Where should I start? Anyone have a safe load developed, for the 180g XTP, that will give about 1200fps? I shouldn't even be close flirting with max pressure with a load like that, so if I could just get there, I'd at least be somewhere. I'd hate to have to just load these for 40!

I also have power pistol, Bluedot, and unique to work with. Anyone want to share some loads using those powders? I plan on using these XTP's with working up to 10.2 grains Blue Dot?

Caution. 800-X is said to be inconsistent, and I am beginning to see evidence to support that. Virtually all load data found limits 800-X to very low pressures. Inconsistent lots might be part of the reason.

In my testing, 9.1 grains under a 180 gr XTP gives noticeable Glock smiles, and 9.6 grains makes pretty nasty ones. It is the only load combination thus far to give me sketchy results. In my gun, and with the batch of powder I was working with, 8.5 grains @ 1150 is the max I feel comfortable with. I don't have an 800-X load for which I am comfortable going to 1200 fps. Perhaps a different lot of powder would have different results. The point being is that 9.4 grains is a bit high of a starting point in my opinion. If you got a lot like the one I was using, you could see some pretty concerning results. I have had different cans of 800-X, but my 180XTP tests were all from a single lot. I may try another workup with a different lot that I have to see what is up. However, I have other powders that are nicer to work with and give great results; so I am not too motivated.

Some guys are getting much better results with 800-X. I would reduce to about 8.0 grains and work up carefully to see how it behaves in your setup. Hodgdon's max is 8.7 grains. So your proposed starting load would be significantly higher than Hodgdon's max.

10.5 grains of Blue Dot gets to 1200 fps with a 180 XTP with no indications of excessive pressure. That load is within Hornady's book data.

13.5 -13.7 grains of Accurate no. 9 gets comfortably to 1200 fps too.

walrus108 08-01-2012 21:32

Thanks for that warning taterhead. My suspicions are confirmed. When I started seeing starting loads that varied by more than 1.5grains, it for sure throws up some red flags. Inconsistant batches, or at least a considerable change in formula over the years, must be the reason. I even have the 'one book/one caliber' book where the 10mm IMR data is partially whited out. From an older copy, I was able to see a max load of 9.7grains under a win JHP 180gr with a velocity of 132? (whited out). They had also listed a load of 14.5grains for the Nosler 135gr at 1670fps! I guess they are no longer standing behind those loadings.

Is it safe to download to 8.0 grains of 800x? I know some powders, like BD, will cause pressure problems also if you start too low. If not, 8.0 will be where I start. Better safe than sorry. I would like to use this 800x, so many 10mm guys rant about how great it can be, but it has me very leery. I'm going to contact IMR and see what they have to say about all this. Maybe I'll use my match witness to build some loads with it, but I'm probablly going to stick with Bluedot for these XTP's I want to load. I like my guns and my fingers!

Anybody want to buy a sealed can of 800-x? 2lbs seems like too much of it for me right now!

CanyonMan 08-01-2012 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taterhead (Post 19261376)
Caution. 800-X is said to be inconsistent, and I am beginning to see evidence to support that. Virtually all load data found limits 800-X to very low pressures. Inconsistent lots might be part of the reason.

In my testing, 9.1 grains under a 180 gr XTP gives noticeable Glock smiles, and 9.6 grains makes pretty nasty ones. It is the only load combination thus far to give me sketchy results. In my gun, and with the batch of powder I was working with, 8.5 grains @ 1150 is the max I feel comfortable with. I don't have an 800-X load for which I am comfortable going to 1200 fps. Perhaps a different lot of powder would have different results. The point being is that 9.4 grains is a bit high of a starting point in my opinion. If you got a lot like the one I was using, you could see some pretty concerning results. I have had different cans of 800-X, but my 180XTP tests were all from a single lot. I may try another workup with a different lot that I have to see what is up. However, I have other powders that are nicer to work with and give great results; so I am not too motivated.

Some guys are getting much better results with 800-X. I would reduce to about 8.0 grains and work up carefully to see how it behaves in your setup. Hodgdon's max is 8.7 grains. So your proposed starting load would be significantly higher than Hodgdon's max.

10.5 grains of Blue Dot gets to 1200 fps with a 180 XTP with no indications of excessive pressure. That load is within Hornady's book data.

13.5 -13.7 grains of Accurate no. 9 gets comfortably to 1200 fps too.




I completely agree.... ! ;)








CM

Taterhead 08-01-2012 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by walrus108 (Post 19261882)
Thanks for that warning taterhead. My suspicions are confirmed. When I started seeing starting loads that varied by more than 1.5grains, it for sure throws up some red flags. Inconsistant batches, or at least a considerable change in formula over the years, must be the reason. I even have the 'one book/one caliber' book where the 10mm IMR data is partially whited out. From an older copy, I was able to see a max load of 9.7grains under a win JHP 180gr with a velocity of 132? (whited out). They had also listed a load of 14.5grains for the Nosler 135gr at 1670fps! I guess they are no longer standing behind those loadings.

Is it safe to download to 8.0 grains of 800x? I know some powders, like BD, will cause pressure problems also if you start too low. If not, 8.0 will be where I start. Better safe than sorry. I would like to use this 800x, so many 10mm guys rant about how great it can be, but it has me very leery. I'm going to contact IMR and see what they have to say about all this. Maybe I'll use my match witness to build some loads with it, but I'm probablly going to stick with Bluedot for these XTP's I want to load. I like my guns and my fingers!

Anybody want to buy a sealed can of 800-x? 2lbs seems like too much of it for me right now!

8.0 grains is not too downloaded at all. It is less than 10% below the powder manufacturer's max (a common reduction for starting loads). It is also way higher than Hornady's start charge. It will be just fine. In fact I have run plenty of 180 grain bullets as low a 7.0 grains. I have burned up a lot of my onhand supply with plinkers just to get rid of it.

The point about downloaded powders causing detonation or other pressure problems has been pretty thoroughly refuted. Speer's #14 manual discusses laboratory inquiries. The problem with slow-burning powder and downloaded charges is that you get really inconsistent velocities and, potentially, accuracy.

nickE10mm 08-02-2012 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by walrus108 (Post 19258235)
I have some new Win brass, 800x, WLP and 180g XTP bullets to load. I'm starting to regret my choice in bullets. I am having trouble finding a reasonable starting point for this weight bullet. I'd like to choose a charge weight that will get me @1200fps, and call it good. The problem is, the numbers i find are all over the place for any similar weight bullets. Has this powder changed a ton over the years? I've seen load data listing 8.4g 800x to 10+g, all for 180gr bullets and all very near 1200fps.

So far, I was thinking of taking a shot in the dark and starting at 9.4g. does this seem reasonable? Starting weights for this powder seem all over the place and data using this specific bullet is very limited. Where should I start? Anyone have a safe load developed, for the 180g XTP, that will give about 1200fps? I shouldn't even be close flirting with max pressure with a load like that, so if I could just get there, I'd at least be somewhere. I'd hate to have to just load these for 40!

I also have power pistol, Bluedot, and unique to work with. Anyone want to share some loads using those powders? I plan on using these XTP's with working up to 10.2 grains Blue Dot?

I've shot quite a few 180gr XTP's over 10.0gr of 800X with CCI300 NON-mag primers in fully supported barrels ... never a problem... I get over 1300fps with a 6" barrel and usually over 1250 with a 4.6" barrel. That being said, some have seen inconsistencies with this powder. I've only bought one pound of it and its still half full, so I've not gotten any different lots to "try" yet, and I doublt I'll ever buy 800X again since Longshot and a few others get me where I need and they also meter, which 800x does not. (I always hand weighed after trickling up the 800x charge).

I've gone as high as 9.5gr with a 200gr XTP and 800x / CCI300 ... but it was pushing what I thought was safe and haven't done any workups that high since. I think 9.2.9.3gr 800X with a 200gr XTP is about safe max in my pistols. With the 180gr XTP, I really have had good luck with 10.0gr. I'd say your 9.4gr starting point will do just right.

walrus108 08-02-2012 18:46

I have emailed IMR asking why there are so many vastly different suggested loads out there for this powder, as well as deleted data from past manuals, and asked them for advice on recent load data/starting points. I thanked them in advance for helping me 'safely use their product'.

If I get an answer, I'll post back what they say. As for now, the 800-x will be used to start very low, and SLOWLY work up a bit, until I find the most accurate zone. I'll probablly use some of the 180gr x-treme bullets I have in bulk. Once I settle on a load, then I'll prob make a ton just like them for target/competition. I'll make some heaters out of the XTP's using Bluedot, which I've used a ton already and feel much more comfortable with.

Thanks to you all for your continued help. I always appreciate words of wisdom from those that have 'been there, done that'.

Taterhead 08-02-2012 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickE10mm (Post 19264646)
... I'd say your 9.4gr starting point will do just right.

Nick, not to be argumentative, but I want to make sure that it is known that starting at 9.4 grains is about 7 tenths above the powder manufacturer's MAX. With emperically observed powder inconsistencies, I would recommend something much lower as a place to start. No harm in starting lower except a few bucks of burned up components. I have personally observed smiles at 9.1 and nasty smiles at 9.6 gr. This is the only load combo to give excessive pressure symptoms in my gun.

nickE10mm 08-03-2012 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taterhead (Post 19265593)
Nick, not to be argumentative, but I want to make sure that it is known that starting at 9.4 grains is about 7 tenths above the powder manufacturer's MAX. With emperically observed powder inconsistencies, I would recommend something much lower as a place to start. No harm in starting lower except a few bucks of burned up components. I have personally observed smiles at 9.1 and nasty smiles at 9.6 gr. This is the only load combo to give excessive pressure symptoms in my gun.

Thanks for catching me on that, Tater. You are completely and 100% right.... I was tired when I responded and didn't even check the load.

To the OP, Tater is right.... Start with a book load. It is the prudent thing to do. Every weapon system is different.

walrus108 08-06-2012 22:52

I have just loaded up some of these 180gr XTP's, in new Win brass, using 800x starting at 8.0 grains and increasing in 0.2gr increments to 9.6. I will be checking every shots brass and won't hesitate to stop at any sign of pressure. I will first test in my Match EAA Witness and if it passes, my G20. I am fully prepared to stop at any point and have to pull bullets. We'll see. I will post back my results.

BTW Hornady's handbook sixth edition just arrived and it has the best info I've ever seen as to WHY each barrel is an entity unto it's self and why pressure can vary so much from barrel to barrel, or even the same barrel over time. Very good resource.

This is fun! :supergrin:

Taterhead 08-07-2012 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by walrus108 (Post 19279775)
I have just loaded up some of these 180gr XTP's, in new Win brass, using 800x starting at 8.0 grains and increasing in 0.2gr increments to 9.6. I will be checking every shots brass and won't hesitate to stop at any sign of pressure. I will first test in my Match EAA Witness and if it passes, my G20. I am fully prepared to stop at any point and have to pull bullets. We'll see. I will post back my results.

BTW Hornady's handbook sixth edition just arrived and it has the best info I've ever seen as to WHY each barrel is an entity unto it's self and why pressure can vary so much from barrel to barrel, or even the same barrel over time. Very good resource.

This is fun! :supergrin:

Solid plan. You are right. It is fun. Looking forward to your results.


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