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-   -   Anyone ever use Norma 203-B? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1427396)

Boxerglocker 06-15-2012 10:42

Anyone ever use Norma 203-B?
 
I was at IDPA practice and new member to our club and very nice guy, that I helped out with his new shooters orientation several months back. Walked up to me said hello and handed me a new unopened can of Norma 203-B powder. Said, He thought that it could be use for either .308 or heavier .223 loads.
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/krutburk.gif

I caught a excerpt from the IMR - Daily Bulletin about it stating: Norma 203B Available from Grafs.com — Replaces Varget or RL15
For those folks desperate to find Hodgdon Varget or Alliant Reloder 15, we suggest you try Norma 203B. This is a very accurate powder very close in performance to Reloder 15 (it is produced by the same manufacturer, Bofors). It should give slightly more velocity than Varget, but it is somewhat more temperature sensitive.

In a 6mmBR or .308 Win, start with your Varget load with 203B. You may, then, be able to increase the load slightly, unless you’ll be shooting in very hot weather. Grafs.com has plenty of 1-lb cans of Norma 203B in stock, Item Number: NP203B1,

Anyone every use this powder for .223? Being similar to Reloader 15 or Varget, I'm suspecting it would push a heavier 69-77g pretty well. Just would like to find some data for it.

WiskyT 06-15-2012 11:32

I'd just stick with Unique.

F106 Fan 06-15-2012 12:50

I would just look up the loads in the Norma Reloading Manual. Oh, wait... I just did!

For .223 bullets lighter than or equal to 55 gr, Norma 200 and 201 is recommended.

For 60 gr, Norma 200, 201 and 202 is recommended

For 69 gr, Norma 201, 202 and 203B is recommended

For the 69 gr Sierra MK, 24.0 - 25.7 gr Norma 203B will give 2805 - 2986 fps. OAL 2.244"

In .308, Norma 203B is recommended for bullets equal to or heavier than 165 gr.

Richard

GIockGuy24 06-15-2012 13:34

These days it is the same powder as RL-15.

RL-7 = Norma 200

RL-11 (discontinued) = Norma 201

RL-12 (discontinued) = Norma 202

RL-15 = Norma 203B

RL-19 = Norma 204

RL-22 = Norma MRP

RL-25 = Norma MRP-2

RL-10 and RL-17 are newer powders.

Boxerglocker 06-15-2012 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by F106 Fan (Post 19092942)
I would just look up the loads in the Norma Reloading Manual. Oh, wait... I just did!

For .223 bullets lighter than or equal to 55 gr, Norma 200 and 201 is recommended.

For 60 gr, Norma 200, 201 and 202 is recommended

For 69 gr, Norma 201, 202 and 203B is recommended

For the 69 gr Sierra MK, 24.0 - 25.7 gr Norma 203B will give 2805 - 2986 fps. OAL 2.244"

In .308, Norma 203B is recommended for bullets equal to or heavier than 165 gr.

Richard

Where did you find load data? WTF, I looked.... Oh there it is :wow:
I need to get some more 69 SMKs and maybe some 75s to try out.

GIockGuy24 06-15-2012 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker (Post 19093096)
Where did you find load data? WTF, I looked.... Oh there it is :wow:
I need to get some more 69 SMKs and maybe some 75s to try out.

The Norma website has load data and there are Norma load guides available but they aren't seen often.

GIockGuy24 06-15-2012 14:03

http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunition-Academy/

http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunition-Academy/Loading-Data/

F106 Fan 06-15-2012 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker (Post 19093096)
Where did you find load data? WTF, I looked.... Oh there it is :wow:
I need to get some more 69 SMKs and maybe some 75s to try out.


For no particularly good reason, I bought the hardbound Norma Reloading Manual - Edition 1.

I thought that since I was going to be loading 6.5x284 Norma that maybe the manual would have something interesting.

As it turns out, 6mmbr.com has more interesting, albeit not really published, information.

As a loading manual, this book is a piece of artwork. It's really pretty.

Richard

GIockGuy24 06-15-2012 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by F106 Fan (Post 19093379)
For no particularly good reason, I bought the hardbound Norma Reloading Manual - Edition 1.

I thought that since I was going to be loading 6.5x284 Norma that maybe the manual would have something interesting.

As it turns out, 6mmbr.com has more interesting, albeit not really published, information.

As a loading manual, this book is a piece of artwork. It's really pretty.

Richard

Does the Norma load manual have load data for 7.62x39? The old Norma load data used to be on the website but that cartridge is no longer listed.

F106 Fan 06-15-2012 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIockGuy24 (Post 19093820)
Does the Norma load manual have load data for 7.62x39? The old Norma load data used to be on the website but that cartridge is no longer listed.


It's not in the book, either.

Richard

GIockGuy24 06-15-2012 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by F106 Fan (Post 19093839)
It's not in the book, either.

Richard

Okay, thanks. I think I have the old Norma load data recorded somewhere. I was curious if it had changed but I guess it has been dropped completely.

Boxerglocker 06-15-2012 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIockGuy24 (Post 19093929)
Okay, thanks. I think I have the old Norma load data recorded somewhere. I was curious if it had changed but I guess it has been dropped completely.

OK, I've committed already to saying that I wouldn't, but the curiosity has gotten to me.

For a AK 7.62x39mm what's the average cost to load for a typical training round per a thousand?

GIockGuy24 06-15-2012 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker (Post 19094006)
OK, I've committed already to saying that I wouldn't, but the curiosity has gotten to me.

For a AK 7.62x39mm what's the average cost to load for a typical training round per a thousand?

Well I've never figured it out really. I buy the cheapest FMJ bullets I can find. I used to use Remington brass but it has changed from strong small primer cases to large primer cases I can't find due to limited production. Winchester brass does not last in this caliber. Lapua brass last a lot longer but is twice as much to buy. Back when I could find IMI brass it wasn't bad. There are PMC and Fiocchi cases. Federal cases are worse than Winchester cases. I can load ammo that is a lot more accurate than the cheap ammo.

Boxerglocker 06-15-2012 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIockGuy24 (Post 19094075)
I can load ammo that is a lot more accurate than the cheap ammo.

That's a given... too bad the bulgarian surplus can't be reloaded or can it?

F106 Fan 06-15-2012 17:52

New Lapua brass is about $0.60/each. If you can get 10 reloads, it averages out to $0.06/round.

Add $0.04 for powder, $0.02 for a primer and $0.10 for a bullet (all of these are WAGs) and you end up at $0.22/round or $220/1000. Not including shipping and Hazmat.

Just slightly cheaper than TulAmmo at CheaperThanDirt ($240/1000 plus shipping).

Richard

Boxerglocker 06-15-2012 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by F106 Fan (Post 19094140)
New Lapua brass is about $0.60/each. If you can get 10 reloads, it averages out to $0.06/round.

Add $0.04 for powder, $0.02 for a primer and $0.10 for a bullet (all of these are WAGs) and you end up at $0.22/round or $220/1000. Not including shipping and Hazmat.

Just slightly cheaper than TulAmmo at CheaperThanDirt ($240/1000 plus shipping).

Richard

I just got 2 cases of Wolf 123g for $229 each shipped.

F106 Fan 06-15-2012 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker (Post 19094144)
I just got 2 cases of Wolf 123g for $229 each shipped.

I think you had the right answer earlier: Don't bother reloading this caliber. Don't bother bending down to pick up the brass.

Having bought all the consumables plus all the XL 650 caliber conversion stuff (including the Dillon die set plus the Dillon trim die), I am going to have to load a truck full of .223 to break even.

Richard

Boxerglocker 06-15-2012 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by F106 Fan (Post 19094158)
I think you had the right answer earlier: Don't bother reloading this caliber. Don't bother bending down to pick up the brass.

Having bought all the consumables plus all the XL 650 caliber conversion stuff (including the Dillon die set plus the Dillon trim die), I am going to have to load a truck full of .223 to break even.

Richard

.223 was a different story for me. I think I was $600 and change into getting geared up for that but saved over 50% on buying XM193. I've loaded close to 10K total now so it's paid for itself. That doesn't include the precision stuff, where I really save.

F106 Fan 06-15-2012 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker (Post 19094272)
.223 was a different story for me. I think I was $600 and change into getting geared up for that but saved over 50% on buying XM193. I've loaded close to 10K total now so it's paid for itself. That doesn't include the precision stuff, where I really save.

My Dillon order was $400 (even) and I already had the trimmer. Everything should be here Tuesday.

I'm going to have to shoot a lot of ammo to break even.

Actually, it gives me something else to load with my XL 650 so it's all good.

Richard

burnsoft 10-03-2012 18:25

1 Attachment(s)
I just created my first loads for the 7.62x39 from this data. I'm mostly looking for a good long range round for a ar-15 in 7.62x39mm that I recently put together. I'll test the loads this weekend, but I hope the load data picture that I attached helps you out some, if you go that route.

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GIockGuy24 10-03-2012 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnsoft (Post 19482316)
I just created my first loads for the 7.62x39 from this data. I'm mostly looking for a good long range round for a ar-15 in 7.62x39mm that I recently put together. I'll test the loads this weekend, but I hope the load data picture that I attached helps you out some, if you go that route.

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I load quite a bit of 7.62x39. What components are you using?

burnsoft 10-04-2012 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIockGuy24 (Post 19483506)
I load quite a bit of 7.62x39. What components are you using?

My First Batch that i'm going to test out saturday is using the hornady 123G Z-Max with Winchester Large Rifle Primers
Winchester Cases, and two set of powder loads
H322 @ 26.2g
and
H322 @ 27.6g

Using a 1-10 twist in the barrel

All the other powders for that load sheet i posted i don't have, which will need to do some research and testing to see if
IMR3031, IMR4064 and VihtN140 will work and what to start out with.

Any recommendations for a good 100 yd. 7.62x39mm?
,


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GIockGuy24 10-04-2012 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnsoft (Post 19484726)
My First Batch that i'm going to test out saturday is using the hornady 123G Z-Max with Winchester Large Rifle Primers
Winchester Cases, and two set of powder loads
H322 @ 26.2g
and
H322 @ 27.6g

Using a 1-10 twist in the barrel

All the other powders for that load sheet i posted i don't have, which will need to do some research and testing to see if
IMR3031, IMR4064 and VihtN140 will work and what to start out with.

Any recommendations for a good 100 yd. 7.62x39mm?
,


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I haven't used H322 in 7.62x39 but some people claim it works really well. I have used it in other calibers and I think it might might be a bit slow for 7.62x39 but it shouldn't be bad. Hopefully you got a good batch of Winchester primers. Their quality has seemed to have dropped off recently.

The load guides require a lot of study and some experience with this caliber. First the old pressure limit using the copper crusher CUP method was 45,000 CUP in Europe and Ruger is the company that submitted the cartridge to SAAMI but Ruger bumped up the pressure limit to 50,000 CUP because this was about what they got firing a .311" diameter in a .308" barrel bore, with a "standard" chamber. Ruger also modified the chamber to reduce the pressure increase effects of firing a larger bullet in a smaller bore.

Ruger determined that both their rifles and Colt's could handle the pressure. Then SAAMI switched to transducer PSI method of pressure measurement. This resulted in some high number that was considered too much, so SAAMI knocked the specs all the way down to 45,000 PSI transducer, not CUP copper crusher.

This low pressure limit set by SAAMI caused a lot of the load guides to go very mild with their load data. More recently the powder companies have updated their load data to be more practical and closer to the standard European pressure limit.

Some manuals have some very hot load data, like the Speer manual does with some powders. The Sierra load guide has load data for both .308" bullets and .311" bullets. The load data is not very different for the two sizes and it isn't too hot and it's not bad with some powders.

Of the best powders I've found are, H4198, A1680 and RL-7. A note about the current IMR-4198. It is not the same powder that most of the load data used. It used to made in Canada and was less dense than H4198. It filled the case full. It had a larger diameter and longer kernel size than H4198 and it was black due to graphite. Now IMR-4198 is made in Australia. It is the same powder as H4198 but is cut longer and is dyed black to "look" like old IMR-4198 It does now have the smaller diameter of H4198. The older load data is usually based on how much could fit inside the case as the burning rate wasn't much different from H4198. Using either H4198 or IMR-4198, I recommend using H4198 load data. The shorter cut H4198 is easier to measure, so there isn't much point in buying IMR-4198 anymore.

Hornady used to make super accurate .311" FMJ bullets that weighed 123 grains. They have replaced them with 123 grain .310" FMJ bullets that aren't as accurate, in European firearms anyway. I think the AR15 might have a .308" diameter bore. The Hornady SST which I think is the same or similar to the Z0max bullet should be very accurate. The Speer 123 grain bullet is accurate. Sierra makes some bullets but they may be more for 303 British velocities.

From the powder companies the load data that is good is,

123 grain bullet

26.5 grains H4198

27.0 grains A1680

27.0 grains RL-7

There is at least one load guide that shows 22.5 grains of IMR-4227. This isn't a bad load but it may not provide enough gas for some rifles. I have bumped this load up a bit but pressure increases quickly.

Speer shows 28.0 grain of A1680. This may be too hot for some rifles.

One load guide had 30.0+ (30 plus) grains of RL-7. It is in the slower range of powders but seems like too much to me. Norma had a slightly lower max load of N-200.

The Lyman load data is mostly useable but I think the load data from powder companies seems best and the most up to date.

Winchester cases often do not last for many, if any reloads in this caliber. The Lapua cases are more expensive but should last for a few reloads. In an AR15 the Winchester cases may last better than in some other rifles though.

Most die sets come with two neck expanders. One is meant for .308" bullets and one is meant for .311" bullets. Often the .311" expander is a loose fit, even on .311" bullets, maybe due to the 7.62x39 case neck. The .308" expander often works well with .310" and .311" bullets, especially if they are boat tail bullets and the case life may be longer. It depends on the brand of dies which expander will work best but I like to use the tightest one that will allow seating the bullets.

burnsoft 10-04-2012 19:06

Thanks for the tip GlockGuy, I will pick up some of those powders to try out as well as see how this h322 works with it.
The z-max got pretty good reviews and has a Ballistic Coefficient of 0.295, and since they only sell those bullets by the box of 500, so i have 500 chances to find the right load. The Dies that I am using are RCBS and the .311 z-max fit perfectly in the case after the resizing die was used.

I was holding off on reloading this caliber for the past year since the ak i have grouped about 2.5 MOA at 100, and the ar was about 1.5, and this was all with wolf ammo.

But with the reloading book i have the the suggestions that you gave, i'm hoping to find a good load for it.



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burnsoft 10-06-2012 13:46

1 Attachment(s)
The h322 with 27.6 gr. grouped very well, even if I pulled the 4th shot

I'm going to pick up one of the other powders you recommended to see if I can find another powder to fall back on.
Just thought I would let you know the results. Thanks again.


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