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-   -   10mm Feeding Issue (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1358225)

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 15:39

10mm Feeding Issue
 
This was originally posted on the "Reloading 101" Thread. Steve suggested I post it as a new thread, so here goes:

I've been reloading for about five years now. I started on a Forster CO-AX and eventually broke down and bought a Dillon 650XL a couple of years ago. Love both machines! I primarily load 10mm on the Dillon. I'm shooting and loading probably 1K of 10mm month. I have several Dillon "Quick Change" Tool Head/Powder Measures setup with favorite powders, bullet types etc. I shoot 10mm Glocks, Dan Wessons, Wilson Combat and have a couple of Smith and Wesson 610's 6 1/2" (cannons, they shoot anything!). All semi-autos have match barrels, Glocks have KKM Precision/Jarvis/Lone Wolf Barrels with full chamber support. I've tuned recoil springs (Wolff and/or Wilson) to accommodate my loads accordingly.

My question/problem: OAL and Failure to Feed issues. All magazines are new. Fixed with the Glocks by shortening the OAL to ~1.245 (Max for 10mm is 1.260). Problem is much better with Dan Wesson's and not a problem with the Wilson Combat now that I have shortened the OAL. I use a taper crimp of .422. Loads are well within "Maximum" loadings for the 10mm and chronograph as expected. I primarily use Montana Gold CMJ's, FMJ's or JHP's. JHP's seem to feed more consistently. When measuring factory loads like Double Tap, I get OAL's all over the place, but consistently between 1.243 to 1.253. I have a Dillon Max Cartridge Gauge and check all my rounds through it. I also randomly check rounds for crimp and OAL with calipers. I need my rounds/guns to be 100%.

Any suggestions, tips or feedback would be appreciated.

-Jay (whenmonkeysfly)

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 15:41

ZombieSteve,

All are flush or slightly below in cartridge gauge and sit in barrel hood like the picture below:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...bilitiesxn.jpg

Rounds in the Dan Wesson 1911 10mm seem to get stuck nose-diving in to the hood of the barrel. Feed ramps on the 1911's are significantly steeper than on my Glock barrels. All have done much better with polishing and then shortening the cartridge OAL. Springs are all good/new. I've been experimenting with 20 to 24 pound recoil springs and different loadings. My Glock 20 with a 6" KKM Precision Barrel now works 100% .

I guess I'm just trying to rule-out problems with my handloads. I have generally had more feed problems when I loaded my rounds to maximum OAL (checked to make sure they weren't over max with a case gauge and caliper).

Thought I throw this out to the handloaders on the GT forum since I think we have a lot of experience here. (I've got a bunch of Double Tap and Buffalo Bore, but I really don't want to shoot it all up doing function tests on my guns... kind of my emergency stash.) Plus my handloads are more consistent than most factory overall.

I know you, Colorado and others here have a lot of experience reloading so I'm hoping for a collective, problem-solving solution.

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 15:50

Pictures of Barrel, Hood, Round
 
Here:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...arrelHood2.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...BarrelHood.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...AL/10mmOAL.jpg

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 15:52

Could this be a Dan Wesson 1911 10mm issue?

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 16:48

Go, No Go and my handloaded 10mm - 1.245 OAL
 
Go:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...Chamber/Go.jpg

No Go:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...amber/NoGo.jpg

My 10mm @ 1.245 in Dan Wesson 1911 10mm Razorback:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...dCartridge.jpg

_The_Shadow 07-25-2011 17:54

Damn, Jay your rounds shouldn't be a problem! They fit the gauge they should run.
Is this just with the Dan Wesson or others as well?
What about the magazines themselves? Have the lips sprung outward possibly?
What about magazine fit? I have heard of some fitting too deep into the magwell.

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by _The_Shadow (Post 17681771)
Damn, Jay your rounds shouldn't be a problem! They fit the gauge they should run.
Is this just with the Dan Wesson or others as well?
What about the magazines themselves? Have the lips sprung outward possibly?
What about magazine fit? I have heard of some fitting too deep into the magwell.

New magazines, Dan Wesson with metal followers and Wilson Combat with plastic followers. Dan Wesson's work better in the Dan Wessons than in Wilson Combat and vise versa. Mag lips are fine. I spent some more time polishing the barrel feed ramp, chamber, and chamber hood. It's gotten better since I shortened the OAL, but still a few FTF's last time out.

Figured my 10mm buddies here on GT could offer some possible insights. Not sure about fitting too deep into the magwell. Good thought! Thanks!

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 18:13

My Wilson and Glocks don't have the problem since I shortened the OAL to 1.245.

Meathead9 07-25-2011 18:22

Maybe try a little more crimp? I have crimped down as low as .416 with some of my loads, but more consistently to .418-.419. I have no experience with 1911's, so my advice is limited. Good luck man.

What spring weight are you using with the DW?

Have you shot factory rounds through it?


-MEAT

_The_Shadow 07-25-2011 18:22

I think I read where McNett actually loaded some bullets to 1.242", I think those were the 200 and 220 WFNGC's, I don't have any of his 10mm stuff to measure, the only DT stuff I have is the 9x25Dillon.

whenmonkeysfly 07-25-2011 19:02

Mike's DT 10mm run much shorter than 1.260. They are consistently between 1.243 to 1.253.

Meat,

Tried more crimp earlier and had more problems, but not as much as you're suggesting - may be worth a try. My Glocks/Wilson are running fine with 1.245 OAL and a .422 taper crimp. I'll keep experimenting.... Beginning to think its the Wessons.... in 10mm....

21Carrier 07-26-2011 01:30

My experience is limited to Glocks, but the ONLY feeding problems I've ever had were with heavier than stock springs (with Glock barrels and all rounds loaded to 1.258-1.260"). My theory is that they just speed up the return to battery so much that feeding suffers. This seems to get exacerbated when using "match" barrels, or anything tighter than factory. Try going back to factory spring weights. Another option would be stiffer mag springs. Many people say they help when using stiffer recoil springs.

Another thought would be extractor tension and tolerance. If your misfeeds are ending up nose-up (which is what it sounds like), perhaps there's something that's keeping the rounds from sliding under the extractor claw smoothly. I would check the extractor for burrs, and possibly do some polishing/clearancing if the rounds do not slide under it easily (since the Glocks feed well now, use them as a benchmark for how they should feel when sliding under the extractor). Another option would be reducing its spring tension.

I would try the factory recoil springs first, then mag springs, then extractor.

If all else fails, a looser barrel might work. This could be achieved through returning to the factory barrel, or through chamber polishing.

EDIT: Also check the breech face for imperfections that might hinder a round from smoothly sliding under the extractor.

whenmonkeysfly 07-26-2011 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meathead9 (Post 17681947)
Maybe try a little more crimp? I have crimped down as low as .416 with some of my loads, but more consistently to .418-.419. I have no experience with 1911's, so my advice is limited. Good luck man.

What spring weight are you using with the DW?

Have you shot factory rounds through it?


-MEAT

I'm using a 24lb recoil spring. Shot some (ten to fifteen) DT factory through it with one hiccup, a nose dive into the chamber hood, like my handoads. I think another trip to the range with a stock 20lb (21Carrier suggestion) recoil spring for another test. I'll take my camera a try and get some pictures of any feed issues....

whenmonkeysfly 07-26-2011 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by _The_Shadow (Post 17681950)
I think I read where McNett actually loaded some bullets to 1.242", I think those were the 200 and 220 WFNGC's, I don't have any of his 10mm stuff to measure, the only DT stuff I have is the 9x25Dillon.

Shadow,

DT's, 200 Grain WFNGC's measure at 1.249 consistently.

whenmonkeysfly 07-26-2011 19:49

Dan Wesson Razorback Limited 10mm update on feeding issue: I switched to a 20lb. recoil spring and did extensive polishing of the feed ramp, chamber, chamber hood. Ran 350 rounds through her with two FTF's, which was quickly fixed by a tap/ and partial rack. I think the combination of shortening the 10mm cartridge to 1.245, barrel polishing and the 20lb. recoil spring fixed the issue. The G20 with 6" KKM Precision Barrel didn't miss a beat.

_The_Shadow 07-26-2011 20:10

Jay, Sure sounds like you have found some progress, good job! Congrats!

21Carrier 07-27-2011 03:07

That's awesome, man. I'm glad you figured it out. Two out of 350 is damn good, and it sounds like that's much better than before.

whenmonkeysfly 07-27-2011 08:51

Thanks guys, I appreciate all your suggestions/input! I couldn't have figured it out without your help!

The two FTF's were after 300 rounds and the gun was dirty and running drier than I like for a 1911 with a match barrel. (Ran one mag through the gun as fast as I could pull the trigger and it didn't miss a beat. (Of course I wouldn't have won any prizes for bullseye shooting either!)

After I got home, cleaned the gun, pulled the extractor and did some very minor sanding, cleaning and polishing on it as well after noticing a few minor burrs (Thanks, 21Carrier).

Here's a few good links for 1911 extractor tuning:

http://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/r...ty_secrets.htm

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=1...tor_Adjustment

10mm Rules!

whenmonkeysfly 07-29-2011 09:43

I went back to the range yesterday with my Dan Wesson Razorback Limited 10mm some of the following loads:

8.3 Grains of Hodgdon Longshot
CCI-300 LP Primers
Starline Brass
155 Grain Montana Gold JHP
OAL: 1.245
Taper Crimp .422

Loads were running 1150-1200fps (Chrono'ed). Experienced some failure to feed issues on first round into the tube - nose dive into the hood of the chamber.

I have read in several places that 1911 style pistols prefer a longer OAL.

So I'm going back to the press to crank out some 1.255's and see what happens with this FTF issue.

I think I will experiment with the taper crimp as Meathead suggested earlier in this thread.

I'll also take my G20 with it's KKM Precision 6" Barrel and see how it feeds and shoots as well. I'm looking for a median 1200fps with a 155 grain bullet (186 PF). My above loads shot softly and accurately. A real pleasure to shoot. (The 180's and heavier bullets tend to make me flinch more.)

Any one have any ideas/comments/suggestions on OAL and Failure to Feed issues?

Appreciate the feedback! 10mm Rules!

ModGlock17 08-01-2011 07:42

Feeding issue I experienced was the slide locked back with the last round still in the mag area, instead of an empty mag.

Replaced with a Wolf +10% mag spring, on my G20. It should push the rounds up a little harder.


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