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-   -   Trigger control/target transition - sequence? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1335754)

TWoody 04-12-2011 18:44

Trigger control/target transition - sequence?
 
What's the best sequence of trigger control when transitioning between targets, such as a GSSF COF or plates?

Should the finger come out of the triggerguard during transition?

if not - do you reset on the first target, then transition?

..transition and then reset on the second target?

..reset while transitioning?

Thanks for constructive replies!

HK Dan 04-13-2011 06:49

<chuckles> Don't come off the trigger while transitioning. I reset while I'm transitioning (I think). To be honest it's all subconscious at this point. I look, the gun shoots. It's a good, fair arrangements that neither of us complains about...LOL

ron59 04-13-2011 07:58

Typically never take finger off trigger just to transition between targets. The times I *can* think of when it is necessary is during movement (walking/running between positions), during reloading, or gun malfunctions. There certainly may be other times.

You *mention* GSSF here.... in general with GSSF, finger is off trigger while waiting for beep (should be in "low ready" position). I put finger on trigger just as I'm finishing my arm extension, gun is pointed at target, and I don't take it off the trigger until I'm done with the COF. Assuming no jams or anything of course.

When does reset happen? Not even sure if that's measurable, but immediately after the trigger breaks for the shot, I'm resetting for the next one.

Arc Angel 04-13-2011 13:14

:shocked: Oh, a Glock's trigger reset point is very noticeable; but first you've got to realize that it's, both, there AND manageable.

The right way to learn how to use a Glock's reset point is while you're firing live ammunition at an approved target. Fire the shot. Then continue to hold the trigger at its most rearward position. With the muzzle still lined up on the target, move your trigger finger ever so slightly forward until you notice a slight, 'click'. This, 'click' is the trigger's reset point.

With lots of practice you'll learn how to instinctively move your trigger finger just far enough forward to stop, 'the thickness of a hair' IN FRONT OF the trigger's reset point.

(I'm telling you that it is a mistake to stop moving your finger exactly on the reset point. If you mistakenly teach yourself to do this then, someday, you might cause the pistol to momentarily fail to reset - Which will slow you down and might cost you the shot.)

While you're still learning it's OK to just hold the trigger back and simply allow it, 'to chase' your trigger finger forward into reset - This is how we, all, learn. After the reset distance is programmed into your reflexes is when you can stop, 'chasing' the trigger; and merely move your finger slightly forward, of the reset point before immediately bringing your finger back again to fire the next shot.

When you get good at this you'll actually have the impression of merely, 'tapping' the trigger for each shot. While you're doing all of this with your hands, you're also going to be learning how to watch, both, your front sight AND the target all at the same time.

Sounds more difficult than it actually is. All I needed to learn how was plenty of live ammunition. The only other thing I'm going to suggest is that if you want to learn how to fire really quickly, you're going to need to know how to take a lower than normal hold on the target and NOT fully nest your front sight.

It's been awhile, now, since I competed; but, when I used to do this sort of thing on a regular basis I would, 'square up' the rear of the pistol, then, hold low on the target, and work strictly off the top of the front sight.

(You will need to fire a minimum of 1,000 to 1,500 rounds each month in order to become genuinely competent with this technique; however, while you are learning, MOVE VERY SLOWLY AND DELIBERATELY, OK. Speed comes, almost, naturally over time.)

ron59 04-14-2011 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arc Angel (Post 17207604)
:shocked: Oh, a Glock's trigger reset point is very noticeable; but first you've got to realize that it's, both, there AND manageable. [Edited]

Great post, but I don't understand why you posted it.

Nowhere did I read where he was asking HOW to manage the reset.

From the sound of things, maybe he has only gotten to practice at an indoor range, shooting at one (the same) target, much as I do. He wasn't sure if, when he transitioned to the next target, leaving his finger on the trigger was a safety issue or not. At least, that was how I interpreted his post. Especially when he's asking if he needs to take his entire finger out of the trigger guard.

Reading comprehension. It's a good thing.

TWoody 04-14-2011 08:27

It's true - to some degree I wondered if it was a violation of any safety related rules in GSSF, IDPA, or similar events - since you are moving the pistol through a degree of motion without being "on a target" that you intend to shoot. What about a full 180 transition? That seems like a lot of space to move through with a finger on the trigger (especially right at the reset.....)

Removing the finger from the triggerguard while _running/walking_ from one shooting position to another I can completely understand - I just wondered if the same held true transitioning from target to target from the same shooting position....

Secondly, I was curious if there was a "best practice" regarding this particular sequence. Since we are training for accuracy, speed, and repeatability we would clearly want to establish the best possible sequence and then train it until it becomes second nature.

Efficiency of movement would seem to dictate that reset and transition occur simultaneously - ie

sight picture
fire
transition/reset (simultaneously)
sight picture
fire
....repeat until last target engaged.

What does your sequence look/feel like? Is it even noticeable? How did you arrive at that particular sequence?

ron59 04-14-2011 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWoody (Post 17211364)
It's true - to some degree I wondered if it was a violation of any safety related rules in GSSF, IDPA, or similar events - since you are moving the pistol through a degree of motion without being "on a target" that you intend to shoot. What about a full 180 transition? That seems like a lot of space to move through with a finger on the trigger (especially right at the reset.....)

Removing the finger from the triggerguard while _running/walking_ from one shooting position to another I can completely understand - I just wondered if the same held true transitioning from target to target from the same shooting position....

Secondly, I was curious if there was a "best practice" regarding this particular sequence. Since we are training for accuracy, speed, and repeatability we would clearly want to establish the best possible sequence and then train it until it becomes second nature.

Efficiency of movement would seem to dictate that reset and transition occur simultaneously - ie

sight picture
fire
transition/reset (simultaneously)
sight picture
fire
....repeat until last target engaged.

What does your sequence look/feel like? Is it even noticeable? How did you arrive at that particular sequence?

You'd never do a "full 180". I've never seen a course of fire setup that way... would be too close to the edge of safety.

Your sequence is pretty much it, but not quite, in that the reset/transition isn't at the same time. Typical transition takes much longer time than typical reset, so it's more like:
reset (even during recoil)
start transition
.
.
.
complete transition.
sight picture
fire
rinse repeat

Arc Angel 04-14-2011 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ron59 (Post 17211125)
Great post, but I don't understand why you posted it.

Nowhere did I read where he was asking HOW to manage the reset.

From the sound of things, maybe he has only gotten to practice at an indoor range, shooting at one (the same) target, much as I do. He wasn't sure if, when he transitioned to the next target, leaving his finger on the trigger was a safety issue or not. At least, that was how I interpreted his post. Especially when he's asking if he needs to take his entire finger out of the trigger guard.

Reading comprehension. It's a good thing.

Thank you! You'll be glad to know that my reading comprehension skills are alive and well. If you expand your mental horizon, just a little bit, you might notice that I was responding to, BOTH, the original question as well as another respondent's possibly misleading reply.

Hope this clears things up for ya. :)

9x45 04-17-2011 13:24

In this video the only time my finger is off the trigger is during the run for the reload, otherwise on and prepped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G-im1Dttq0

180 degree transitions are not common, but you encounter them from time to time. We tend to have more at Norco Running Gun USPSA, but this was an IDPA event.

http://www.youtube.com/user/whitey43.../2/fxLAIVI1Ixo

his finger does not come off the trigger

waktasz 04-17-2011 19:00

Even between :13 and :15 in the first video?

9x45 04-17-2011 19:30

Even between :13 and :15 in the first video? Yes, like I said, except for the reload. Do shoot USPSA?

waktasz 04-17-2011 19:49

No never. What's that?

9x45 04-17-2011 20:06

http://uspsa.com

waktasz 04-17-2011 20:10

Ya don't say?

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in
accordance with Section 8.5.


8.5 Movement
8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets,all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fin-
gers visibly outside the trigger guard


Appendix A3
Movement . . . . . . . . . . . .Taking more than one step in any direction, or chang-
ing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling,
from seated to standing etc.)

9x45 04-18-2011 07:07

waktasz No never. What's that? You never heard of USPSA and now you are quoting the rule book... Are you a shooter or a reader?

Never mind, you are still in school. When you finish school, go shoot a USPSA match and report back.

waktasz 04-18-2011 07:17

You're a moron. I was being sarcastic.

Keep your damn finger off the trigger while moving.


Also, I see that you must have been reading my profile that I created in 2002 when I joined this site. Your detective work is impeccable.

dvrdwn72 04-18-2011 07:35

I have learned through idpa,uspsa to aquire target, shoot, hold trigger until next target is aquired, reset and pull. I do not let the trigger reset until I have the next target in my sights, then I reset and pull.

9x45 04-18-2011 08:46

Your detective work is impeccable. I see that you must have been reading my profile that I created in 2002

So you finally got out of school, 9 years, not bad. What was your major? English with a minor in name calling? You can't call people bad names on this forum, it's in the rules. You like to quote rules......

To me, words are just words, got any videos? (not of school) of shooting.

waktasz 04-18-2011 10:16

I'm sorry I haven't updated my profile since the day that I joined Glocktalk. I'll make sure from now on that I'll keep it up to date if I change career paths or hobbies in the future.

My only point is that I'm surprised you would post "yes, I have my finger on the trigger when moving between target arrays". It is clearly against the rules and dangerous. I've seen two ADs in person by people doing the same thing. Luckily none of them left the range.

ron59 04-18-2011 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9x45 (Post 17230558)
Your detective work is impeccable. I see that you must have been reading my profile that I created in 2002

So you finally got out of school, 9 years, not bad. What was your major? English with a minor in name calling? You can't call people bad names on this forum, it's in the rules. You like to quote rules......

To me, words are just words, got any videos? (not of school) of shooting.

Between :13 and :15 you are not reloading, but moving from the one barrier to the other barrier. If your finger is indeed on (even in the trigger guard) during this time, you are indeed exhibiting BAD gun safety.

Your defensiveness at having "been busted" is making you look all the worse.

I don't have any videos, but I'm a 'B' class shooter and only joined 6 weeks ago. A nearby club had a "classification" match with all 5 stages being classifiers. Ummmm, you don't look all that great, honestly. Your classification?


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