Glock Talk

Glock Talk (http://glocktalk.com/forums/index.php)
-   Caliber Corner (http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)
-   -   Does the .357 SIG need to exist? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1334877)

greenlion 04-09-2011 07:48

Does the .357 SIG need to exist?
 
If .40 S&Ws can push a 135gr bullet to 1420 fps, PLUS a 165 gr @ 1240fps, plus a 180gr @ 1150fps, all the way up to a 200 gr @ 1100fps, why does anyone need the .357 sig?

The 125 grain .357 SIG is a smaller bullet and it only has 100fps higher velocity than the larger 135 gr .40S&W. If you up the weight of the .357 SIG to 147 grains, it only makes 1296fps, compared to a heavier 165gr .40S&W at 1240.

On top of that, Double Tap loads a 125 grain .40S&W load at 1445fps, lagging behind the .357 SIG round by only 5 fps.

I don't see the need to hang on to the .357 SIG round when it is already scarce on store shelves and is more difficult to reload and re-use brass, being a necked down cartridge.

Someone defend it and prove me wrong :supergrin:

unit1069 04-09-2011 07:58

Quote:

Does the .357 SIG need to exist?
Ask the Secret Service. That premier American protection agency certainly had (and has) access to many other handgun calibers to choose from when they decided on what was the best all-round choice for the task assigned to their agents.

ChiefWPD 04-09-2011 08:08

My Glock 23 will only function with 100% reliability with a light attached if I use a Lone Wolf .357 SIG barrel in her. Yes, I have the latest mag followers and, yes, I have the 11 coil springs in my mags. No .357 SIG, no reliable functioning.

So, I guess I need the .357 SIG.

:wavey:

bug 04-09-2011 08:31

I think it is a more accurate round than the 40 I used to have both.

I think it feeds more reliably that 40! I have never had my 31 jam for any reason ever.

my .40 did not like lights as mentioned above so it was out as a house gun.

Even though they are usually marked the same number of rounds you can usually get 16 in a glock .357sig mag saving that extra step of taking the mag out and topping it off with one more round. :supergrin:

tall terry 04-09-2011 08:34

Yes!!!

Joshhtn 04-09-2011 08:34

Tagged.

Brucev 04-09-2011 09:30

If the .357 SIG had hit the market at the time LE agencies were getting dissatisfied with the 9mm, there would almost certainly never have been a .40 S&W. The .357 SIG is a excellent round. Its greatest problem is the lack of readily available cheap practice ammo as well as being chambered in a limited number of pistols. For many shooters, the fact that it is a bottleneck round makes it much less attractive for reloading as it precludes use of carbide dies. It is very limited in available and usable bullet weights. If it could handle a heavier bullet, it would be better. The .40 S&W does offer advantages for those who want a larger bore using heavier bullets. With lighter weight bullets, the .40 offers lots of velocity and on target energy. Yesterday I was in Wal-Mart. They had lots of .38 Special, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They had one box of .357 Sig. ammo... WWB at $29/50 rds. By contrast, WWB .45ACP is $35.97/100 rds and .40 S&W 180gr. FMJ are $29/100 rds. For the normal shooter who does not go through a wheelbarrow load of ammo every month, who tends to go to places like Wal-Mart and buy a box of ammo to shoot, the prices cited are a big reason why the .357 SIG is not making much progress in the market place. It is likely going to wind up like the .280 Remington... fine round but now largely only used by those who just like something "different." Everyone else just buys a .270 Winchester. JMHO.

fredj338 04-09-2011 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenlion (Post 17187104)
If .40 S&Ws can push a 135gr bullet to 1420 fps, PLUS a 165 gr @ 1240fps, plus a 180gr @ 1150fps, all the way up to a 200 gr @ 1100fps, why does anyone need the .357 sig?

The 125 grain .357 SIG is a smaller bullet and it only has 100fps higher velocity than the larger 135 gr .40S&W. If you up the weight of the .357 SIG to 147 grains, it only makes 1296fps, compared to a heavier 165gr .40S&W at 1240.

On top of that, Double Tap loads a 125 grain .40S&W load at 1445fps, lagging behind the .357 SIG round by only 5 fps.

I don't see the need to hang on to the .357 SIG round when it is already scarce on store shelves and is more difficult to reload and re-use brass, being a necked down cartridge.

Someone defend it and prove me wrong :supergrin:

Most newbs into shooting & ballistics miss the sectional density part of any caliber. The SD of the 135gr/40 is the same as the SD of a 105gr/357. So if both bullets have the same construction, both penetrate the same. You can drive a 105gr 357sig to 1600fps, so make both a monometal HP & the 357sig wins the penetration & tissue destruction do to the higher vel.:dunno:
BTW, the 357sig can handle heavier bullets. I can drive the 135grSGDB to almost 1300fps. That is slightly better than a 165gr/40 & going about 100fps faster. It's a shame that Speer doesnt' play w/ this though, it would be a good one, but better than the 125gr @ 1350fps+, probably not. You would get more penetration out of it, but it's already got a good rep for that.

greenlion 04-09-2011 10:57

The Gen 4 GLOCKS seem to have fixed the light mounting problems with their stiffer recoil spring, so that will not be a problem in the future.

I like the technical info on sectional density Fred, but there is no such thing as a 105gr .357 sig doing 1600fps in the real world for us to purchase as far as I know.

The ft/lbs are not that far apart even given the seemingly wide difference in number you give for velocity according to sectional density.

125gr .357 = 584 ft/lbs
135gr .40 = 567 ft/lbs

Beware Owner 04-09-2011 11:08

Uh, yeah.

bug 04-09-2011 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenlion (Post 17187732)
The Gen 4 GLOCKS seem to have fixed the light mounting problems with their stiffer recoil spring, so that will not be a problem in the future.

I like the technical info on sectional density Fred, but there is no such thing as a 105gr .357 sig doing 1600fps in the real world for us to purchase as far as I know.

The ft/lbs are not that far apart even given the seemingly wide difference in number you give for velocity according to sectional density.

125gr .357 = 584 ft/lbs
135gr .40 = 567 ft/lbs

Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy (ftlbs.) Muzzle Velocity (fps)
357 SIG TFSP 60 774 2410

Www.rbcd.net

sells it I am going to order an try it

To be fair they sell some hot .40 as well

Wyocop 04-09-2011 11:45

A 20th Century analogy:
 
Does the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP need to exist? Or is it a solution seeking a problem; an answer to a question that no one asked? After all, it's just a faster .38 Special anyway. And we already have other rounds in 9mm/.38, plus .44s and .45s in various weights and loadings. Isn't that enough?

That's what the anti-357 SIG arguments sound like to me. :whistling:

If the most commonly encountered anti-357 SIG arguments are true then is it fair to say the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP goes down in history as a solution to a non-problem?

Few cops in the 20th Century believed that.

Now, does the .40 S&W need to exist? I don't see.....:supergrin:

fredj338 04-09-2011 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenlion (Post 17187732)
The Gen 4 GLOCKS seem to have fixed the light mounting problems with their stiffer recoil spring, so that will not be a problem in the future.

I like the technical info on sectional density Fred, but there is no such thing as a 105gr .357 sig doing 1600fps in the real world for us to purchase as far as I know.

The ft/lbs are not that far apart even given the seemingly wide difference in number you give for velocity according to sectional density.

125gr .357 = 584 ft/lbs
135gr .40 = 567 ft/lbs

Well the technical info is how you compare bullets/calibers, not just vel & energy. There are actually frangible practice rounds that are 100gr, but you can get a 115grJHP @ 1500fps+, will still do a bit better than a 135gr/40 in penetration, all things being equal. FWIW, energy in pistol rounds is pretty meaningless, especially 50ft# either way. You could certainly handload a 90grDPX (Barnes) to easily hit 1600fps & the monometal would be devastating to any animate target.

Angry Fist 04-09-2011 12:14

First conversion I ever bought. Lots of fun! I don't want to see it go. It's good to have options....

fastbolt 04-09-2011 12:25

Since the LE/Gov trend in .40 S&W duty ammunition appears to be resulting in increasingly greater attention to the 180gr load, the folks who want a relatively lightweight, faster .355" bullet that can develop 50-150fps more velocity than the +P/+P+ 9mm loads are still probably going to look toward the .357SIG for their service caliber.

As long as the market indicates there's money to be made, the major companies will focus attention on it.

Wyocop 04-09-2011 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brucev (Post 17187433)
If the .357 SIG had hit the market at the time LE agencies were getting dissatisfied with the 9mm, there would almost certainly never have been a .40 S&W. The .357 SIG is a excellent round.

+1:thumbsup:

RyanNREMTP 04-09-2011 12:44

A couple of years ago at swat training we found some plywood targets that were attached to metal fence posts. Most everyone was shooting target ammo which I think was American Eagle, I don't know what grain it was. Upon seeing this with a .40 cal bullet, I decided to get my conversion barrel and some target .357 Sig ammo and see what it would do.

This picture is the .40 cal bullets hitting just the fence post.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...Picture009.jpg

This picture is the .357 Sig bullets hitting the plywood and then going through the fence post.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...Picture012.jpg

Angry Fist 04-09-2011 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanNREMTP (Post 17188113)
A couple of years ago at swat training we found some plywood targets that were attached to metal fence posts. Most everyone was shooting target ammo which I think was American Eagle, I don't know what grain it was. Upon seeing this with a .40 cal bullet, I decided to get my conversion barrel and some target .357 Sig ammo and see what it would do.

This picture is the .40 cal bullets hitting just the fence post.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...Picture009.jpg

This picture is the .357 Sig bullets hitting the plywood and then going through the fence post.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...Picture012.jpg

Enough said.

dkf 04-09-2011 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanNREMTP (Post 17188113)
A couple of years ago at swat training we found some plywood targets that were attached to metal fence posts. Most everyone was shooting target ammo which I think was American Eagle, I don't know what grain it was. Upon seeing this with a .40 cal bullet, I decided to get my conversion barrel and some target .357 Sig ammo and see what it would do.

This picture is the .40 cal bullets hitting just the fence post.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...Picture009.jpg

This picture is the .357 Sig bullets hitting the plywood and then going through the fence post.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...Picture012.jpg

I take it the .40 cal being shot that day were 165gr. or 180gr.? The 135 Gr .40 more than likely would have penetrated even less.

I'm glad the .357sig was developed and it serves a purpose. I just wish it was a more popular round and wasn't price gouged so bad.

gusbuster 04-09-2011 14:54

I just bought a Gen4 G27 and ordered a G33 barrel for it. I want to try both rounds for accuracy and shootability. However, I do tend to favor high velocity rounds.

Wyocop 04-09-2011 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkf (Post 17188538)
I'm glad the .357sig was developed and it serves a purpose. I just wish it was a more popular round and wasn't price gouged so bad.

I hear that a lot but I recently bought 357 SIG/125 for $20.99. The .40/180 on the shelf next to it was $22.99. Both were Speer Gold Dot.

triggerjerk 04-09-2011 15:25

Treasury Dept. is replacing old Sigs in .357 with new S and W MP's in .40.

Merkavaboy 04-09-2011 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by unit1069 (Post 17187124)
Ask the Secret Service. That premier American protection agency certainly had (and has) access to many other handgun calibers to choose from when they decided on what was the best all-round choice for the task assigned to their agents.

How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs. And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.

The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers. It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition. The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.

LT1coupe 04-09-2011 17:52

Actually the Sig is a more flexible platform. It can be loaded down to 9mm specs or loaded up beyond 40. If the 357 sig cartridge would've been devoloped 1st, there would be no 40S&W & cost would not be as lopsided.

Wyocop 04-09-2011 18:06

You make some good points...
 
...and some I disagree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy (Post 17188879)
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

True, but the same could be said of any weapon or caliber.

Quote:

The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs.
Of course they were. No one would say these aren't good loads.

Quote:

And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.
I think that's true. But a many state agencies around the country have gone to the 357 SIG and I don't know if USBP is involved in more shootings than all those state agencies combined. In North Carolina (the tread starter's home state) every state agency went to it: troopers, game wardens, alcohol agents, and state criminal investigators. The reasons usually heard are barrier penetration and duplication of the venerable .357 Magnum's ballistics with the 125 gr JHP. The old magnum round has been amply represented in police gunfights, especially highway shootings.

Quote:

The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers.
I don't accept that as fact. See argument about duplicating the .357 125 JHP.

Quote:

It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition.
Point taken with ammo costs (at least for now) but I don't buy the training part. In my experience, my G33 has less muzzle flip than my partner's G27. Both are "snappy" but the .40 snaps up and the 357 snaps back. I can make a faster follow-up shot with my G33.

Quote:

The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
Civilain SD? Maybe. LE? I don't think so. At least not where barriers are likely to be a concern. The versatility argument has it's points in civilian SD but not LE given that most agencies will mandate a certain duty round.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 19:26.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2013, Glock Talk, All Rights Reserved.