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-Jeremiah- 05-18-2010 10:41

Used my reloads for 1st time in GSSF match. Not good!
 
1 Attachment(s)
I had a lot of feed failures. After the 1st time I had a reshoot and then it happened again so I was tap-rack-bang from that point on. I figured it was pointless to do anymore reshoots or see the armorer.

G30 shooting Berry's 200 grain flat point with a shoulder, 4.4gr WST powder, 1.195 OAL using mixed brass. In working to that load I started with two bunches loaded at 4.5 grains and 4.4 grains with an OAL of 1.225. Those loads has a lot of feed failures so I loaded some more 4.4gr with an OAL of 1.195. That load shot really well with zero failures and very good accuracy which is why I used it at the match.

At the match I was loading my magazines to full capacity (10 rounds) with one in the chamber. An RO suggested that my mag springs were stiff and this was causing my slide to not fully cycle for the 1st few rounds in the magazine. I have eight magazines and not all of them were causing jams, some are new and some are old. I eventually stopped loading 10+1 and instead went with 9+1. That helped but I still had a few feed failures. It should be noted that I didn't load to 10+1 when I was testing my loads, only 9+1 and I didn't test in all of my magazines. Lesson learned.

I also started locking my elbows in my shooting stance and making sure that my wrists were tense. When I didn't this I didn't have any failures but I was on my last couple strings of the match and only loading to 9+1.

So, where to from here? I got the suggestion on this board to load 4.4gr with OAL of 1.120-5. That seemed awfully short compared to my load data that said 1.225.

Would an OAL of 1.120 keep the slide from riding on the top round as much and improve feeding? Or, should I just bump up my powder charge to 4.5gr? OR :embarassed:, should I scrap the flat point bullets and go with a round nose?

Hoser 05-18-2010 14:22

Go with a round nose and add a touch more crimp.

I load all my 45 ACP ammo to 1.245 for an OAL.

1.120 is more for 9x19 and 40.

Colorado4Wheel 05-18-2010 15:05

Did you never test your loads with full magazines?

RustyFN 05-18-2010 16:25

Quote:

An RO suggested that my mag springs were stiff and this was causing my slide to not fully cycle for the 1st few rounds in the magazine.
Your load is too light. Starting load for a 200 grain jacketed bullet is 4.6 grains of WST. I load 4.8 under a 200 grain lead SWC. I would suggest starting around 4.7 or 4.8 and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.

-Jeremiah- 05-18-2010 19:18

Steve: I did test my loads with full mags. I loaded them up to with 10 rounds and sent rounds down range. I didn't load up with 10 +1 and I didn't test the load in all 8 of my magazines. Lesson learned. :-)

RustyFN: Thank you for your advice. These bullets are plated. Starting load for a 200gr lead or plated bullet is 4.2 according one source and 4.4 according to two others. 4.7 and 4.9 and 5.1 are the max loads for a 200 grain lead bullet according to my data. My purpose is to load light for GSSF comp.

I'm not opposed to increasing my powder charge if that's what I need to do. I would like to know why this load works for others and didn't for me. If I can fine tune it or switch bullet designs...that would be a plus.

Since I have 30 or 40 of these loads left, I'm thinking about pressing them down to 1.161 which is what Lyman's says for 200gr lead bullet. I don't really have them crimped. I just took the bell out.

RustyFN 05-18-2010 19:40

Quote:

These bullets are plated. Starting load for a 200gr lead or plated bullet is 4.2 according one source and 4.4 according to two others. 4.7 and 4.9 and 5.1 are the max loads for a 200 grain lead bullet according to my data.
Yes, Berry's recommends using jacketed data with their plated bullets. I have been loading Berry's plated for a few years with jacketed data with great results. This is from Berry's web site.

Quote:

Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.
Velocities depend on the caliber, but as a rule of thumb, we recommend you don't shoot our plated bullets over 1200 feet-per-second. Our 44's actually shoot best around 1150 fps. 45's are generally good at 850-900 fps. Our bullets are not recommended for magnum velocities.

Bob2223 05-18-2010 19:43

Berry's 200 grain flat point with a shoulder ?

do you mean a 200 gn SWC ?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...200-swc_tn.jpg

Colorado4Wheel 05-18-2010 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Jeremiah- (Post 15318712)
Steve: I did test my loads with full mags. I loaded them up to with 10 rounds and sent rounds down range. I didn't load up with 10 +1 and I didn't test the load in all 8 of my magazines. Lesson learned. :-)

I only ask to find out what changed and how that could result in your problems.

tjpet 05-18-2010 20:27

Upping the powder charge won't hurt (I run my 200grn. .45ACP rounds with 5.0grns. WST) but for the most part it looks like you don't have enough crimp on your ammo. Don't buy the BS about "just removing the bell" is all you need. Turn the case mouth slightly into the round or if taper crimping make sure the case is tight up against the bullet. That will most likely eleviate your problem.

Colorado4Wheel 05-18-2010 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjpet (Post 15319201)
Upping the powder charge won't hurt (I run my 200grn. .45ACP rounds with 5.0grns. WST) but for the most part it looks like you don't have enough crimp on your ammo. Don't buy the BS about "just removing the bell" is all you need. Turn the case mouth slightly into the round or if taper crimping make sure the case is tight up against the bullet. That will most likely eleviate your problem.

Take a look at the Lyman manual. It also says not to crease the bullet. In my experiance any inward movement of the crimp will crease a plated bullet. There is a pretty broad range of what will work and wont work. Any outward will cause a problem more then likely. Very slight inward curve probably won't hurt anything. Neither will a straight case. Too much crimp on a plated bullet will cut the plating and cause issues.

MisterLady27 05-18-2010 20:41

Different Question - Not an answer to OP
 
Hey Jeremiah,

1. This doesn't solve your ammo cycling issue - But, did you not shoot Maj Sub class? It sounds like you were playing against all the guys with bigger guns, smaller calibers and eleven rounds.:supergrin:

2. We shoot some GSSF, it's a family thing - very enjoyable. I usually shoot a 27 in the Am Civ class and my beloved 30 in Maj Sub. Of course, the margin of miss on the plates is 1. But a slow plate is much faster than a missed plate! Ask me how I know this.:whistling:

3. I've used/using TG w/ 230's for matches. See the othetr thread in GTR for discussions about 185 vs 230. My notes have match fodder at 4.1 gr and 4.0gr TG. TG is faster than WST(my other pistol powder of choice/use) but scorches.

ML27

-Jeremiah- 05-18-2010 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyFN (Post 15318877)
Yes, Berry's recommends using jacketed data with their plated bullets. I have been loading Berry's plated for a few years with jacketed data with great results. This is from Berry's web site.

Thanks for that info. I didn't see that on their site. I wonder if their plating is thicker than normal. All other info that I've read says to treat plated bullets as lead. The manufacturer knows best, I'm sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob2223 (Post 15318908)
Berry's 200 grain flat point with a shoulder ?

do you mean a 200 gn SWC ?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...200-swc_tn.jpg

No. Perhaps "shoulder" isn't the correct term. I don't know, it looks like a shoulder to me. http://www.berrysmfg.com/upload/bull...-200-fp_tn.jpg

The only things that changed are: During the match I used all of my magazines and I loaded up to 10 +1 so the slide had to cycle on top of a full ten round magazine. Some of my magazines are definitely stiffer than others. I didn't take these things into account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjpet (Post 15319201)
Upping the powder charge won't hurt (I run my 200grn. .45ACP rounds with 5.0grns. WST) but for the most part it looks like you don't have enough crimp on your ammo. Don't buy the BS about "just removing the bell" is all you need. Turn the case mouth slightly into the round or if taper crimping make sure the case is tight up against the bullet. That will most likely eleviate your problem.

I am taper crimping. I will tighten up the crimp on my remaining rounds and see what happens.

-Jeremiah- 05-18-2010 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel (Post 15319263)
Take a look at the Lyman manual. It also says not to crease the bullet. In my experiance any inward movement of the crimp will crease a plated bullet. There is a pretty broad range of what will work and wont work. Any outward will cause a problem more then likely. Very slight inward curve probably won't hurt anything. Neither will a straight case. Too much crimp on a plated bullet will cut the plating and cause issues.

I read that part in the Lyman manual. I tried to make my cases pretty straight. I'll go a little farther and see if I can get a little bit of an inward curve. I definitely don't want to crease the plating. I've read that my accuracy will suffer if I over crimp. The bullets are in there tight. Resizing the cases made them nice and tight for the berry's bullets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterLady27 (Post 15319327)
Hey Jeremiah,

1. This doesn't solve your ammo cycling issue - But, did you not shoot Maj Sub class? It sounds like you were playing against all the guys with bigger guns, smaller calibers and eleven rounds.:supergrin:

2. We shoot some GSSF, it's a family thing - very enjoyable. I usually shoot a 27 in the Am Civ class and my beloved 30 in Maj Sub. Of course, the margin of miss on the plates is 1. But a slow plate is much faster than a missed plate! Ask me how I know this.:whistling:

3. I've used/using TG w/ 230's for matches. See the othetr thread in GTR for discussions about 185 vs 230. My notes have match fodder at 4.1 gr and 4.0gr TG. TG is faster than WST(my other pistol powder of choice/use) but scorches.

ML27

haha! I did shoot MajorSub (Sub Compact too) and I found out first-hand what leaving plates standing will do to my score! One tap-rack-bang and one missed plate and all of the sudden I'm 20 seconds into the future! :faint: I've only shot in three matches but I did manage to knock all the plates down in my previous two.

My wife shot her first match with me. She did very well for her first time.

I've read a lot of good things about TG and I've been thinking of trying 230's after my 200's run out. Just to see for myself which I like better.

RustyFN 05-18-2010 21:09

Quote:

I didn't see that on their site. I wonder if their plating is thicker than normal.
I'm not sure how all of the different plated bullet companies compare. I have shot a lot of Berry's and Rainier and always used jacketed data with no problems.

chris in va 05-18-2010 21:10

Possible your gun just doesn't like the TC design. Not the first time I've heard issues with it.

Colorado4Wheel 05-18-2010 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Jeremiah- (Post 15319485)
I read that part in the Lyman manual. I tried to make my cases pretty straight. I'll go a little farther and see if I can get a little bit of an inward curve. I definitely don't want to crease the plating. I've read that my accuracy will suffer if I over crimp. The bullets are in there tight. Resizing the cases made them nice and tight for the berry's bullets.

Your just going to have to experement and see. Don't be afraid to pull a bullet to check. Also, Use the dial calipers as a straight edge on the lip of the case. Hold it up to the light. You will see any outward flare easily like this. I shot a bunch of Rainer's with just a little crease. Eventually I adjusted it out but it worked ok like that.

-Jeremiah- 05-20-2010 10:58

round two much better
 
I had 46 rounds left from this batch. I pressed the bullets down to 1.165 and tightened up the crimp to .470 (previously I was at .471). This didn't crease the plating but it was definitely tight.

I took my stiffest magazines to the range along with a less stiff magazine. I could feel the difference in hand cycling my 30 on top of a stiff mag loaded with 10 rounds compared to a less stiff magazine. It was a big difference. There is definitely a point in the cycle where I could feel the slide encountering more resistance.

Predictably, loading up with 10 +1 using these magazines caused a jam on the first round but no jams afterwards. 10 +1 in my less stiff mag worked great. My load is very accurate. I'm hoping that these magazines loosen up. Otherwise I will just have to load 10 and hope I don't need an 11th round. :embarassed:

I have about 200 of these bullets left. I'm going to load up some with 4.5 grains of WST and see how I like it and how those stiff mags like it. After they are gone I will buy some 230 grain bullets and see if I like them better.

Thanks for all the advice. Send more if you have it. :wavey:

GioaJack 05-20-2010 11:08

It's not at all uncommon for new G30 mags to be very, very stiff when new... sometimes requiring the help of two men and a small boy just to get them loaded. When new the use of an UpLula is a great help.

Load your new mags to capacity and let them sit for a couple of weeks, unloading them and reloading once or twice during that time.

It seems to help relax the spring and generally alleviates the problem of first round FTF. Can't guarantee the results but it worked for me with a LW barrel. Apparently lots of people have had the same problem. Good luck.

Jack

-Jeremiah- 05-20-2010 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioaJack (Post 15328089)
It's not at all uncommon for new G30 mags to be very, very stiff when new... sometimes requiring the help of two men and a small boy just to get them loaded.
Jack

:rofl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioaJack (Post 15328089)
When new the use of an UpLula is a great help.

Load your new mags to capacity and let them sit for a couple of weeks, unloading them and reloading once or twice during that time.

It seems to help relax the spring and generally alleviates the problem of first round FTF. Can't guarantee the results but it worked for me with a LW barrel. Apparently lots of people have had the same problem. Good luck. Jack

We purchased an UpLula a couple weeks ago for my wife who found loading her G17 mags not to her liking. I have to admit that I used it during our last GSSF match and the UpLula is a fine piece of gear! I did kind of miss the beefy look that my thumb gets after a day of loading G30 mags.

I'll load up my mags to capacity and let them sit to see if that helps. Thanks for the advice, Jack.

fredj338 05-20-2010 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyFN (Post 15317643)
Your load is too light. Starting load for a 200 grain jacketed bullet is 4.6 grains of WST. I load 4.8 under a 200 grain lead SWC. I would suggest starting around 4.7 or 4.8 and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised.

I agree, w/ a plated 200gr, that is barely making 725fps if that. The shorter the slide, stiffer the springs, the more force it's gonna need for reliable cycling. Move to 4.6gr-4.8gr, runs about 820fps-840fps in a 3"-3.5" bbl.


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