Jim Cirillo [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Chuck54
07-05-2012, 09:51
Has anybody else read his book "Guns,Bullets and Gunfights" ?


I enjoyed the book and on page 57 he addresses stopping power to my satisfaction.

I won't be a spoiler and tell you about the rest of the book.

Glockdude1
07-05-2012, 10:04
I have not read the book, but in 2001 I met him at the F.L.E.T.C in Georgia. Really nice guy. Defiantly knew what he was talking about.

:cool:

Chuck54
07-05-2012, 11:12
Was he a guest speaker ?

Glockdude1
07-05-2012, 11:45
Was he a guest speaker ?

Yes he was.

It was in March 2001.

:cool:

Zombie Steve
07-05-2012, 12:28
We went to different high schools together. :cool:




Seriously, I read it, liked it, and agree with what he said about it.

cowboy1964
07-05-2012, 12:47
Is that the book written back before the advent of today's modern hollowpoints?

We all know 9mm FMJ sucks. So does .45 ACP.

G26S239
07-05-2012, 12:59
I had it and loaned it someone and never got it back. Cirillo was a true badass but his views on ammo led him to endorse the ultra light ultra fast RCBD ammo before he died. I disagree with his conclusion there but he won plenty of shootouts.

4949shooter
07-05-2012, 14:44
Jim Cirillo and I believe Mas Ayoob both avocate(d) the Glock 30 as a carry / fighting pistol.

WiskyT
07-05-2012, 18:08
He was a badass in real life, and an amazing shooter. I watched a video of his at my partner's house and he was shooting with the gun at chest height due to his injured shoulders. He was just indexing the gun without using the sights and it was like watching an exhibition shooter.

Tiro Fijo
07-05-2012, 18:22
Is that the book written back before the advent of today's modern hollowpoints?...


He had used at one time or another 9mm +p+ and liked it. He also swore by the M1 Carbine with 110 gr. HP's and said it put people down right now. The again, he loved his own .45 ACP full WC bullets for the 1st shot in a 1911 as well as full wadcutters in .44 & .45 DA revolvers. These of course were his own handloads in the days before the ACLU and the hand wringing Liberals for the most part :whistling:


Jim Cirillo and I believe Mas Ayoob both avocate(d) the Glock 30 as a carry / fighting pistol.

At the end of his life he carried a Glock G30 & a G27 as a backup.

...he was shooting with the gun at chest height due to his injured shoulders. He was just indexing the gun without using the sights...


I shoot the same way due to a bad shoulder and also because like Jim I learned in the old days of the REAL Weaver Stance with DA revolvers:


The REAL Weaver Shooting Stance - YouTube

PghJim
07-06-2012, 10:49
I have not read the book, so please share his thoughts on stopping power. I know in the NYC stake out squad he was limited to a 38 and had Super Vel make him special 110gr HP's that would be considered +p. I believe he attended autopsies to see what performed and what did not. I think he was in the class of light and fast bullets.

Again, please share his toughts in the book on this subject.

Droid noob
07-06-2012, 10:59
I just started reading this book. He loves those wadcutters. I keep meaning to get more info on those. I could've sworn he referenced wc performing better than hp at the time.

Are wadcutters banned now? I assume today's hollow points are way better.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

SCmasterblaster
07-10-2012, 12:36
JC died in a July 2007 auto accident.

robhic
07-10-2012, 16:36
Are wadcutters banned now? I assume today's hollow points are way better.

I think that's subjective. I've read where the WC is pretty accurate for a flat-nosed bullet. And they hit like a freight train! With enough power behind it, a WC is a formidable round.

I'm sure someone with a lot more and better info will chime in.

Glockdude1
07-10-2012, 17:07
Are wadcutters banned now? I assume today's hollow points are way better.



Wadcutters are not banned, never have been. They are used by target shooters.

:cool:

Zombie Steve
07-10-2012, 17:21
Wadcutters are not banned, never have been. They are used by target shooters.

:cool:

Maybe the most accurate handgun bullet out there. Trouble is keeping them stabilized out past 20-25 yards, hence the invention of the semi-wadcutter, which is the majority of what I cast and shoot today.

Read up on Elmer Keith if you want to know more about that style of bullet. They still work. :cowboy:

As far as hollow points being better... meh. I'll get by without 'em.

Tiro Fijo
07-10-2012, 17:27
Remember, Cirillo liked WC's in .44 & .45 cal. These were his own hot handloads and not cream puff over the counter crap.

countrygun
07-10-2012, 17:41
His comments and the quotes from him in the very first "Combat Handguns" magazine issues were priceless.

Quite the gunfighter. After all of his shootings on the Stake Out Squad he said "I never so much as nicked a can of beans".

remember about the wadcutters, they were also HBs (Hollow Based) great at 25 yds but they got shakey past there in most guns. The SWC does the same thing on a paper target and really delivers on game in the larger calibers.

You can "shoot for the far shoulder/hip" with them and probably get there

R*E
07-10-2012, 18:47
All of his books have been excellent reading. Tales of the stakeout squad is my favorite.

He designed a bullet similar to Hornady's critical defense. IIRC it was a hollowpoint equipped with all bearing to ensure expansion. It was sold commercially but didn't catch on. He was ahead of his time.

Glockdude1
07-10-2012, 23:45
All of his books have been excellent reading. Tales of the stakeout squad is my favorite.

He designed a bullet similar to Hornady's critical defense. IIRC it was a hollowpoint equipped with all bearing to ensure expansion. It was sold commercially but didn't catch on. He was ahead of his time.

Sounds like the Pow'r ball round.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/ammo/corbon/powrball_lg.jpg
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Corbon%209mm%20+P%20100gr%20PowRBall.jpg

:cool:

Trigger Finger
07-11-2012, 16:31
Slight Spoilers***




This is a great book and I have read it twice and keep referring back to it several times each year. Especially the last 7 years on the job when I worked the Surveillance Unit.

Jim Cirillo liked, very much, the S&W 4546, (p92). This a a 4500 series of Smith's that is double action only. This is one of the things that got my unit using the S&W 4500 series of pistols!

Cirilo also liked the 41 Magnum on a S&W frame a Dan Wesson barrel and with his own designed and patented wadcutter bullets for it and the 44. He also liked the 44 Magnum with a 4 or 5 inch barrel double action.

It says in this book that if he were still on the stakeout squad he would use a Glock 21 as his primary gun!! (p116).

He also has a very good section on shooting handguns.

Cirillo says several times in this book that the main considerations with a handgun shooting are 1) Construction and configuration of the bullet. 2) Diameter. 3) Velocity. and 4) Weight!!! (p47).

I think I might read this book again! :supergrin:

Chuck54
07-11-2012, 16:51
I get something out of it every time I read it and use it for reference too.

PghJim
07-12-2012, 22:07
Sounds like the Pow'r ball round.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/ammo/corbon/powrball_lg.jpg
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Corbon%209mm%20+P%20100gr%20PowRBall.jpg

:cool:

The ammo Jim helped develop was the RBCD Performance Plus and it is still available.

http://www.rbcd.net/home.cfm

agtman
07-14-2012, 05:58
Jim Cirillo and I believe Mas Ayoob both avocate(d) the Glock 30 as a carry / fighting pistol.

Actually, in some gun mag articles hyping the RCBD ammo that G26S239 mentioned, he was using the G20 and G29 and shooting their 10mm product. In another gun-rag piece, he was shown CCW-ing a G29 ... :whistling:

Just FYI ...

:cool:

4949shooter
07-14-2012, 06:02
Actually, in some gun mag articles hyping the RCBD ammo that G26S239 mentioned, he was using the G20 and G29 and shooting their 10mm product. In another gun-rag piece, he was shown CCW-ing a G29 ... :whistling:

Just FYI ...

:cool:

10mm...Excellent!

PghJim
07-14-2012, 08:07
When my testosterone levels rise I carry a G29, now with Underwood 165 gr GD ammo.

Sniper1326
07-14-2012, 08:24
I met Jim at FLETC in 1986 when he was a firearms instructor for Customs after retiring from NYPD. He autorgraphed my target for me that I still have to this day. We met again in Puerto Rico when I was on special assignment with USMS. He was hired to come down and teach a tactical pistol course. We had dinner/drinks and the stories he told were priceless. Cherished memories from a true hero in my mind... At that time he talked about hand loading a hollow based wadcutter upside down so that the hollow cavity would expand when it struck the bad guy. He was a one of a kind guy...... BTW a wadcutter is a very accurate round... I have seen 3" groups fired a 50 yards with this round. It does not lose accuracy past 25 yds.....ask any old PPC shooter...

vanilla_gorilla
07-14-2012, 22:25
Well, yes and no. The wadcutter round, properly loaded, does not destabilize at 25 yards. PPC shooters can use it to 50. However, my experience (and that of many others) is that past 50, they start to go everywhere due to destabilization.

And a swaged lead hollow-based wadcutter, when loaded backwards and slightly hotter than the normal bullseye load, will pretty much turn a raccoon inside out at 8 yards. :whistling:

Tiro Fijo
07-15-2012, 04:40
Well, yes and no. The wadcutter round, properly loaded, does not destabilize at 25 yards. PPC shooters can use it to 50. However, my experience (and that of many others) is that past 50, they start to go everywhere due to destabilization...


I had always heard the same, but there are some who say that WFN bullets CAN be accurate to 100 yds. IF driven fast. I don't know nor will I know as I limit myself to 50 yds. & under with a Ruger SA in the bush using Keith SWC's. If anyone wants to read themselves into a coma on this topic about WFN at long distance then knock yourself out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-141624.html

WiskyT
07-15-2012, 06:40
Well, yes and no. The wadcutter round, properly loaded, does not destabilize at 25 yards. PPC shooters can use it to 50. However, my experience (and that of many others) is that past 50, they start to go everywhere due to destabilization.


It's a velocity issue. The typical full WC load seems to be right on the edge of stabilization. Some guns are faster than others. So, a fast 4" gun and they shoot fine at 50 yards. I've seen them shoot shotgun patterns at 10 yards out of a snub. The same snub shot a fist sized group at 25 yards with a standard LRN load running 100 fps faster. If you handload the WC's to a higher velocity, they will likely stabilize at longer ranges.

FWIW, in official PPC competition, the NRA rules prohibit full WC's. They do allow them in Bullseye and they shoot to 50 yards in Bullseye.

hunter won
10-08-2012, 17:34
I have heard of one of his stories which he used two Model 10's to dispatch the badguy's. A true badass!

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 08:00
I met JC in NH long ago at a shooting match. Mas Ayoob brought him.

Glockdude1
10-09-2012, 08:25
I met JC in NH long ago at a shooting match. Mas Ayoob brought him.

Nice guy.

:cool:

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 08:30
Nice guy.

:cool:

Both he and Mas were gentlemen.

ChiefWPD
10-09-2012, 14:36
Jim liked the full-wadcutter configuration because it is the most effective configuration for handgun level rounds when non-frangible projectiles are used.

Keep in mind that until fairly recently "expanding projectiles" didn't always expand reliably!

Jim sent me (through the gentleman that made them for him) a bunch of his wadcutter rounds in both .38 Special and .44 Special. Very nicely done but I don't think they are currently available.

For the record, I carry Buffalo Bore full-wadcutters in my .38 Special J-frame S&Ws. They are hard cast 150 grain rounds that do an honest +900 fps out of the little 2" barrel.

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 18:15
Jim liked the full-wadcutter configuration because it is the most effective configuration for handgun level rounds when non-frangible projectiles are used.

Keep in mind that until fairly recently "expanding projectiles" didn't always expand reliably!

Jim sent me (through the gentleman that made them for him) a bunch of his wadcutter rounds in both .38 Special and .44 Special. Very nicely done but I don't think they are currently available.

For the record, I carry Buffalo Bore full-wadcutters in my .38 Special J-frame S&Ws. They are hard cast 150 grain rounds that do an honest +900 fps out of the little 2" barrel.

Was it JC who experimented with HBWCs loaded backwards?

WiskyT
10-09-2012, 19:05
Was it JC who experimented with HBWCs loaded backwards?

Everybody with a reloading press has tried that. They did it when JC might have tried it, but before anyone other than his co-workers knew who he was.

JC marketed two loads with wadcutter type bullets that I know of. It was about ten years ago. One was a standard 148 WC at standard pressure, the other was a +P load that had a slot cut in the face of the WC, like a flathead screwdriver slot. They were called "Safestop" and a google search should turn up better info on them. The operation never really got off the ground.

G26AZ
10-09-2012, 19:17
Was he the one that developed (forgive my memory here...) "Pin Grabbers"? They looked like a JHP with a jagged, sawtooth edge around the outside top edge. IIRC, they were originally developed to "bite" in bowling pins during the pin shooting games, but Cirillo opined that they would make good SD rounds because they would not (in theory?) bounce off of a skull.

Then again, my memory might be decieving me and I could be wrong. There was one time I was wrong, but I was mistaken . . .:supergrin:

ChiefWPD
10-09-2012, 19:27
In regard reversing a hollow-base wadcutter, this was done for many years. Problem is twofold; first issue is, they tumbled badly (yeah, I tried them too…), and the second issue is, you’re probably better off with the square end of the round going the way it was designed.

Keep in mind that the British tried this same experiment a hundred years ago with their “Man stopper” series of rounds for the .455 and .476 service rounds. They first put out a double hollowed out (base and nose) round. They then switched to just a hollow base full-wadcutter, finding that round to be no less effective.

SCmasterblaster
10-09-2012, 19:28
Was he the one that developed (forgive my memory here...) "Pin Grabbers"? They looked like a JHP with a jagged, sawtooth edge around the outside top edge. IIRC, they were originally developed to "bite" in bowling pins during the pin shooting games, but Cirillo opined that they would make good SD rounds because they would not (in theory?) bounce off of a skull.

Then again, my memory might be decieving me and I could be wrong. There was one time I was wrong, but I was mistaken . . .:supergrin:

I don't think so :upeyes:

Chuck54
10-11-2012, 12:51
It was mentioned in one of his books

Tiro Fijo
10-11-2012, 16:12
I don't think so :upeyes:


That's because Cirillo used bullets similar to these to kill actual human beings. Read his book & LEARN something. :wavey:

SCmasterblaster
10-12-2012, 13:39
That's because Cirillo used bullets similar to these to kill actual human beings. Read his book & LEARN something. :wavey:

And I have read and reviewed it. :cool:

cqb451
10-12-2012, 20:31
Both he and Mas were gentlemen.

Jim was a gentleman - Mas still is (mostly....)
Got to hang out w/ Cirullo in 2005 for two days at The Snubnose Summit held @ Police Hall of Fame Titusville, FL in December 2005.
That's me on the left.
Jim was a very good yarn spinner to say the least. It was a privilege...........

SCmasterblaster
10-13-2012, 14:22
JC died a bit young. I miss him.

fortyofforty
10-13-2012, 19:19
And of course he died (as so many warriors do) in a tragic accident and not due to enemy action or in combat.

What I am getting from the ammunition discussion is that it was the man, not the machine. He hit what he aimed at, reliably.

SCmasterblaster
10-13-2012, 19:38
And of course he died (as so many warriors do) in a tragic accident and not due to enemy action or in combat.

What I am getting from the ammunition discussion is that it was the man, not the machine. He hit what he aimed at, reliably.

I remember that he died in a car accident.

Chuck54
10-14-2012, 11:21
Chapters three and four explain the "Pin Grabbers" and Cirillo's patented bullets.

SCmasterblaster
10-14-2012, 12:13
I just reviewed it in his book.

Berto
10-15-2012, 23:05
Pingrabbers and the slotted Safestop boolits.
JC is a legend, IMO.

SCmasterblaster
10-16-2012, 19:07
Pingrabbers and the slotted Safestop boolits.
JC is a legend, IMO.

JC is indeed a legend. :cool: