WST Verses WSF Powder [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Rinconjoe
03-01-2012, 06:34
what are the benefits of each powder?
be for 40 S&W 180 gr FM J .

Three-Five-Seven
03-01-2012, 06:44
Think of WST as equivalent of 231 and Titegroup.

Think of WSF as similar to AA#7 and Blue Dot.

WST is a fast burning powder for REDUCED loads. WSF is a slow burning powder for high-power factor, maximum loads.

freakshow10mm
03-01-2012, 08:22
Better description for WSF would be similar to AA #5 and HS6 burn rate and application.

fredj338
03-01-2012, 09:26
Think of WST as equivalent of 231 and Titegroup.

Think of WSF as similar to AA#7 and Blue Dot.

WST is a fast burning powder for REDUCED loads. WSF is a slow burning powder for high-power factor, maximum loads.

Sort of. First, blasphemy saying WST is like TG, nothing is like TG, but I digress. Look at a burn rate chart & reloaidng manaul. That pretty much tells you what certain powders do. WST is a fast burner, just under W231. High loft, celan burning, suitable for any std vel load in low pressure rounds like the 45acp & light-med loads in high pressure rounds like the 9mm & 40.
WSF is smack in the middle of what I call medium burners. In fact, it is so close to Unique you can almost use Uniuqe data for it if you can't find WSF data. So it's a better choice for medium-full power loads in all the service calibers & light to medium loads in magnums & high pressure stuff like the 357sig & 10mm. Not anywhere close to as slow as BD.

Rinconjoe
03-01-2012, 09:48
OK hears wear I stir the pot so of to say , I am new to reloading.
I have shot approx 1500 rounds of 40 S&W 180 gr bullet double plated Berry s at 4.1Gr of WST .
I ended up with wst because they didn't initially have WSF ,
seems to shoot just fine to me would you change now that the shop has both
I mainly for shooting targets and being told by several of the local competition shooter I need to join them, . I have been working with them and they keep hounding me so next month going to try local shoot .
I do shoot good but not sure about this timed stuff anyway another conversation .
i understand WST fast burning powder and has high pressures why I am at low end ,
so would you stick with WST or go to another powder?

tjpet
03-01-2012, 11:25
In a .40 S&W:

WST - Practice loads in the 750-850fps area. You can run hotter and break 900fps or so but...there's no free lunch. Pressures run high and accuracy goes to hell. I run 3.8grs. w/180gr. Berrys and if there's a better practice/gamer load for the .40 I've yet to see it.

WSF - The opposite of WST. Use this to run the .40 at standard specs i.e. 180gr. to 975fps, or hotter. You can use WSF for lighter practice loadings... but why? This powder performs best when run to full strength. Anything less is a waste of good fuel and you'll notice it when it doesn't burn completely and leaves your gun dirtier then normal.

To surmise - Fun, light .40 loads, WST. Full power ammo, WSF.

fredj338
03-01-2012, 12:06
In a .40 S&W:

WST - Practice loads in the 750-850fps area. You can run hotter and break 900fps or so but...there's no free lunch. Pressures run high and accuracy goes to hell. I run 3.8grs. w/180gr. Berrys and if there's a better practice/gamer load for the .40 I've yet to see it.

WSF - The opposite of WST. Use this to run the .40 at standard specs i.e. 180gr. to 975fps, or hotter. You can use WSF for lighter practice loadings... but why? This powder performs best when run to full strength. Anything less is a waste of good fuel and you'll notice it when it doesn't burn completely and leaves your gun dirtier then normal.

To surmise - Fun, light .40 loads, WST. Full power ammo, WSF.

^^THIS^^ WSF is my fav for the 40, but I run upper midragne to full power loads. Unique is right there too, WSF just meters better.

buckshotshorty
03-01-2012, 14:05
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of load data for WST. I just got off the phone with a rep from Hodgedon/Winchester. I called the reloading center to find out why there is such a lack of pistol load data for WST powder, particularly in 9mm. I spoke to Ron and his answer was that WST is not advertised as a pistol powder, but rather a shotgun powder. He also said when there is no published data for a certain powder, it usually indicates that the rise in pressure in a certain powder/cartridge combination can be unpredictable due to temperatures and other factors, and therefore should not be used. As I started to say ..." yeah but......." he cut me off and said: "there is no but about it, pistols, unlike rifles do not give you pressure warning signs. The warning sign is you get hit with pieces of your gun".

Considering I have used WST in my 9mm loads, and like it a good deal, I found his answer to be very unsettling.

I was looking for a load using WST and 147gr. lead bullets in 9mm, and he strongly advised me against it because " WST was too fast for a heavy bullet! Yet, they list 147 gr. loads with 700X and tightgroup which are faster powders.

I do use WSF, and I think it is more versatile than WST. So, particularly in 40 with 180 gr. bullets, I'd stick with WSF.

TonyT
03-01-2012, 14:38
WST is the faster burning powder - consider it a clean burning Bullseye. I use WST for mild loads in ny S&W646 at ca 725 to 750 fps. For loads approaching full power WSF is an excellent choice. Both powders meter with exceptional uniformity in my Dillon 550.

minderasr
03-01-2012, 16:17
I was looking for a load using WST and 147gr. lead bullets in 9mm, and he strongly advised me against it because " WST was too fast for a heavy bullet! Yet, they list 147 gr. loads with 700X and tightgroup which are faster powders.

Yet there is data for 230 gr .45 ACP. Is that not a heavy bullet?

Rinconjoe
03-01-2012, 16:24
i can tell you it works great in 40 S&W from range 4.0 -4.1 gr with 180 gr plated bullets
was thinking of changing but really seems no reason it seems to be a fast clean burning powder yet does have high pressure.

fredj338
03-01-2012, 18:05
bucky, you got the wrong dude @ Hodgdon. Have him post here, love to debate his thoughts. I am doubting he is anything but an exp engineer. Yes, lack of data is one reason I don't recommend ot for 9mm or 40, but saying one can't work up data using WST or any other pwoder for that matter, tells me the guy knows little about reloading. I wonder what he would say about loading off the books for wildcat rounds??

Boxerglocker
03-01-2012, 20:44
bucky, you got the wrong dude @ Hodgdon. Have him post here, love to debate his thoughts. I am doubting he is anything but an exp engineer. Yes, lack of data is one reason I don't recommend ot for 9mm or 40, but saying one can't work up data using WST or any other pwoder for that matter, tells me the guy knows little about reloading. I wonder what he would say about loading off the books for wildcat rounds??

I have to agree with Fred.... WST is a great powder for 9mm.
The only powder I use for my pet load 135g Bear Creek molys meters well, burns clean, super accurate (2 inch off hand at 50 yards, with a Spartan 9mm) very, very consistent.
My load BC 135g RN with 4.0g WST at 1.150 OAL with CCI SPP's runs 1000 Fps on my chrono through my Spartan 9mm.
3 random loads from my belt at WA State IDPA Championship last year ran 1020, 1020, 1019 Fps (chrono was noted as being 20 + Fps generous, by the official chronograph operator) I had the best SD of the day.
I'm switching back Production and the Glock 34 this year with a LWD barrel, running down to a 1.125 OAL at 4.0.... I'll post chrono results after the weekend.

noylj
03-01-2012, 22:55
I have not found a single accurate load with WST. It may be good enough for action pistol, but it sure doesn't meet my accuracy requirements.
WSF has shown real promise in 9x19 and .38 Super for accuracy.

Meathead9
03-01-2012, 22:56
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of load data for WST. I just got off the phone with a rep from Hodgedon/Winchester. I called the reloading center to find out why there is such a lack of pistol load data for WST powder, particularly in 9mm. I spoke to Ron and his answer was that WST is not advertised as a pistol powder, but rather a shotgun powder. He also said when there is no published data for a certain powder, it usually indicates that the rise in pressure in a certain powder/cartridge combination can be unpredictable due to temperatures and other factors, and therefore should not be used. As I started to say ..." yeah but......." he cut me off and said: "there is no but about it, pistols, unlike rifles do not give you pressure warning signs. The warning sign is you get hit with pieces of your gun".

Considering I have used WST in my 9mm loads, and like it a good deal, I found his answer to be very unsettling.

I was looking for a load using WST and 147gr. lead bullets in 9mm, and he strongly advised me against it because " WST was too fast for a heavy bullet! Yet, they list 147 gr. loads with 700X and tightgroup which are faster powders.

I do use WSF, and I think it is more versatile than WST. So, particularly in 40 with 180 gr. bullets, I'd stick with WSF.

This isn't the first time I have read about someone calling Hodgdon, and getting that same answer. I don't really understand why they say that, especially since so many guys use it now.

I tried a PD 124gr JHP over 4.8gr WST @ 1.125, and I didn't really care for it. I liked the feel of 5.1gr WSF better, and I scored better in the stages I shot with it . Both loads were fired through my GEN 4 G17.


.

cole
03-02-2012, 00:23
Powder Burn Rate Chart - Hodgdon (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cts=1330672923761&ved=0CDgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hodgdon.com%2Fburn-rate.html&ei=FnVQT5K4OsSziQKn5s20Bg&usg=AFQjCNFI5JclpN-N3OAop5ouIfG8CLcvSA)

Boxerglocker
03-02-2012, 06:13
I have not found a single accurate load with WST. It may be good enough for action pistol, but it sure doesn't meet my accuracy requirements.
WSF has shown real promise in 9x19 and .38 Super for accuracy.

What is your definition of accuracy? To say it is not without a scale is rather worthless for comparison. Distance? Gun? Rested or freestyle?

HexHead
03-02-2012, 06:20
This isn't the first time I have read about someone calling Hodgdon, and getting that same answer. I don't really understand why they say that, especially since so many guys use it now.

.

Do you really expect them to deviate from the "conventional wisdom" and open themselves to liability?

Meathead9
03-02-2012, 08:44
Do you really expect them to deviate from the "conventional wisdom" and open themselves to liability?

No, but if this many people are using it successfully in 9mm, along with just about every other semi-auto cartridge, I'd get off my ass and start testing (or retesting). Then I would publish the reasons why it's such a bad idea, or that I was wrong. WST has been around for a while, so this can't be a new question. Why not have a more substantive answer than "sometimes pressure spikes... In certain cases... Shotgun powder... But it works fine for everything but 9mm... Blah blah blah..."?

fredj338
03-02-2012, 14:15
No, but if this many people are using it successfully in 9mm, along with just about every other semi-auto cartridge, I'd get off my ass and start testing (or retesting). Then I would publish the reasons why it's such a bad idea, or that I was wrong. WST has been around for a while, so this can't be a new question. Why not have a more substantive answer than "sometimes pressure spikes... In certain cases... Shotgun powder... But it works fine for everything but 9mm... Blah blah blah..."?

Before Hdgdon bought Winchester powderline, Win publsihed data in their free manuals. So then it was fine & now it sucks? Sorry, not buying it. I've been succesfully loadign WST ever since it was 452AA. It shoots better in some cailbers @ certain pressure/vel levels w/ certain bullet types, but that is true for all pwoders IME. In 45acp , I have found none more accurate across all the bullet wts & styles, that says quite a lot for a powders ability.

minderasr
03-02-2012, 15:38
Before Hdgdon bought Winchester powderline, Win publsihed data in their free manuals.

Still possible to find those manuals? Perhaps a digital (pdf) copy?

njl
03-02-2012, 18:16
Yet there is data for 230 gr .45 ACP. Is that not a heavy bullet?

Much larger case volume, running at lower pressure. You can load 124gr 9mm and 230gr .45acp with about the same amounts of WST and get nice loads from each (9mm minor, .45 right around major).

I emailed Hodgdon about this around a year ago and got basically the same answer...that WST does unpredictable things in high pressure loadings. I decided there was enough anecdotal data out there that it was probably reasonably safe to try it. With 147gr X-Treme plated bullets, I've gone as far as 3.8gr at 1.150" and not blown up my G17 yet. Those do about 920fps.

noylj
03-02-2012, 22:35
I want a powder that is at least as accurate as what ever powder I have previously selected. In a gun that I know will do <2" at 25 yards and <4" at 50 yards, I expect the powder to do as well.
In all cases (.38 Special, 9x19, 9x21, .38 Super, .40S&W, and .45ACP), WST and TiteGroup have been no where as accurate or consistent as AA2, Solo1000, AA5, Bullseye, 231/HP38, and others.
I am not going to use a powder that is LESS accurate, plus I want a powder that is accurate over at least +/-0.3gn of charge weight.
For light target loads, AA2 has been about the best and most consistent, with Red Dot being a close second.
YMMV, but WST just has not done well in accuracy in any of my guns.
WSF has shown some promise in .38 Super and .40 S&W mid-range loads.
Note: The powder companies have decided that they are NOT going to test powders outside of the roles they have selected. For a short period, Alliant was listing Bullseye, Unique, Power Pistol, and 2400 as the ONLY handgun powders they would work up loads for. Thus, you will not be getting powder company load data for handguns with any of their shotgunpowders (or vice versa). For this reason, I compile all the load data I have from the last 45 years.

fredj338
03-03-2012, 01:42
Still possible to find those manuals? Perhaps a digital (pdf) copy?
I stupidly tossed mine but I have seen them from time to time. I think the load books series has some of the old Win data in them.

fredj338
03-03-2012, 01:48
I want a powder that is at least as accurate as what ever powder I have previously selected. In a gun that I know will do <2" at 25 yards and <4" at 50 yards, I expect the powder to do as well.
In all cases (.38 Special, 9x19, 9x21, .38 Super, .40S&W, and .45ACP), WST and TiteGroup have been no where as accurate or consistent as AA2, Solo1000, AA5, Bullseye, 231/HP38, and others.
I am not going to use a powder that is LESS accurate, plus I want a powder that is accurate over at least +/-0.3gn of charge weight.
For light target loads, AA2 has been about the best and most consistent, with Red Dot being a close second.
YMMV, but WST just has not done well in accuracy in any of my guns.
WSF has shown some promise in .38 Super and .40 S&W mid-range loads.
Note: The powder companies have decided that they are NOT going to test powders outside of the roles they have selected. For a short period, Alliant was listing Bullseye, Unique, Power Pistol, and 2400 as the ONLY handgun powders they would work up loads for. Thus, you will not be getting powder company load data for handguns with any of their shotgunpowders (or vice versa). For this reason, I compile all the load data I have from the last 45 years.

I just haven't found this to be true in my guns, but everyone I have turned onto WST, at least in 45acp, is beyond thrilled & don't go back to their previous fav. If it doesn't work for you, that certainly puts you in the minority, but hey, I hate TG, I am certainly in that minority.:duel:

tjpet
03-03-2012, 05:47
Still possible to find those manuals? Perhaps a digital (pdf) copy?

WST data for the .40 S&W, .45ACP can be garnered at the Hodgdon Reloading Center online.

The 4th edition Hornady manual has 9mm data for 115/124gr. bullets.

Anybody wanting WST info with 147gr. bullets in a 9mm should try:

Randon case
Random SP primer (standard or mag)
3.8grs. WST
147gr. bullet of your choice
1.150" OAL
940fps give or take

Superbly accurate, clean burning, and low recoiling it's my standard 9mm GP reload. I've gone as low as 3.2grs. for minimum recoil while still maintaining 100% reliability for steel speed shoots.

minderasr
03-03-2012, 15:44
Thanks. I thought maybe Hodgdon changed (or omitted) the info given what they were saying over the phone about WST.

njl
03-03-2012, 20:18
WST data for the .40 S&W, .45ACP can be garnered at the Hodgdon Reloading Center online.

The 4th edition Hornady manual has 9mm data for 115/124gr. bullets.

Anybody wanting WST info with 147gr. bullets in a 9mm should try:

Randon case
Random SP primer (standard or mag)
3.8grs. WST
147gr. bullet of your choice
1.150" OAL
940fps give or take

Superbly accurate, clean burning, and low recoiling it's my standard 9mm GP reload. I've gone as low as 3.2grs. for minimum recoil while still maintaining 100% reliability for steel speed shoots.

I get 920fps from that load. At 3.2gr, are you even making 800fps?

steve4102
03-03-2012, 21:14
http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223470&stc=1&d=1330834429

D. Manley
03-03-2012, 21:49
I stupidly tossed mine but I have seen them from time to time. I think the load books series has some of the old Win data in them.

Ask and ye' shall be given. I have 3 of the old Winchester data sets, the .pdf below is the most comprehensive but no 9MM data in any of them.

I just haven't found this to be true in my guns, but everyone I have turned onto WST, at least in 45acp, is beyond thrilled & don't go back to their previous fav. If it doesn't work for you, that certainly puts you in the minority, but hey, I hate TG, I am certainly in that minority.:duel:

Oddly, I have to agree with the posts above about WST being less accurate than most other powders in high pressure cartridges like 9MM and .40 S&W. I've always wondered a bit about it and considered the possibility it was just me. For whatever reason, the only pistol caliber I've found it "competitively accurate" with many other powders is in .45 ACP. By "competitively accurate", I mean that 10-shot group strings, rested & benched, are near the size achievable with other powders. Off-hand shooting just don't cut it when determining the potential of the load. In my experience, it's very good in .45, decent in .40 and for me, pathetic in 9MM. I have no explanation for my WST experiences, other powders faster or slower (but still near) group tighter and more consistently for me. I've always suspected that my results may be due to exclusively using jacketed and/or, plated bullets...I think WST really shines best with lead but that's just an opinion.

noylj
03-04-2012, 01:05
Here are some of my tests loads for accuracy at 25 yds. I know Bullseye shooters only care about 50 yeard accuracy, but where I shoot, 25 yds is the maximum unless I want to use the 100 yd rifle range and wait about 30 minutes between target changes.
452AA, which I have been told WST is similar to, was one of my very favorite powders for .45 ACP. My results with WST in .40S&W and 9x19 have been similar. At the low and high ends of charge weight, I have a few small groups, but working up I have lots in the 3-6" region.
Bullet Designation Nominal Bullet Weight Actual Bullet Weight Bullet Type Powder Powder Weight Primer COL Gun Accuracy
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 3.3 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.1 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.53
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.3 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 3.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.3 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.3 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.6 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.9 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.16
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.9 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.19
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.66
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.00
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.80
200 200 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.59
200 200 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.69
200 200 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.75
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.59
200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 3.3 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.1 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.53
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.3 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 3.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.3 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.3 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.6 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.6 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.9 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.16
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 4.9 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.66
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.2 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.80
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 200 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.59
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 200 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.69
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 200 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 200 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.59
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" 231/HP38 5.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.1 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 3.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.2 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.2 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.3 WLP 1.276 Colt GC w/PDP5 1.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.4 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.4 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.63
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.4 WLP 1.275 Colt GC w/PDP5 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.5 WLP 1.276 Colt GC w/PDP5 1.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.6 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.6 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.8 WLP 1.276 Colt GC w/PDP5 1.66
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.84
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 3.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.03
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.4 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.7 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.28
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.9 300 Colt NM w/Tasco BKRD42 2.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.9 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.9 300 Colt NM w/Tasco BKRD42 1.91
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.9 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.32
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.9 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 4.9 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.63
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.80
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 5.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 5.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.16
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA2 5.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 5.8 WLP & 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 5.8 WLP & 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 6.2 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 6.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 6.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 6.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.72
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 6.9 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 6.9 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 7.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.41
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 7.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.63
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 7.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 7.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" AA5 7.8 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.3 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.59
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.7 WLP My .45 1.69
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 3.8 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 4.1 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.97
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 4.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.72
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Clays 4.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.53
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Herco 5.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Herco 5.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 8.5 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.91
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 8.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 8.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.63
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 8.9 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 8.9 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.28
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 8.9 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.69
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 9.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 9.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 9.4 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.30
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" HS7 9.4 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 3.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 3.7 300 1.255 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.41
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 3.9 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 4.1 300 1.257 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 4.2 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.72
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 198 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 4.5 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.78
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" N310 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 5.4 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.05
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 5.8 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 5.8 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.47
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 6.1 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 6.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 6.5 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.84
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Power Pistol 6.5 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 3.9 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 3.9 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.34
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.0 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.0 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.0 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 0.92
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.0 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.37
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.0 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.0 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.0 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.48
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.53
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP 1.271 Colt GC w/PDP5 1.35
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP 1.271 Colt GC w/PDP5 1.60
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP 1.271 Colt GC w/PDP5 1.70
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP 1.271 Springfield w/Fire Point 1.40
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP 1.271 Springfield w/Fire Point 1.65
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP 1.271 Springfield w/Fire Point 2.33
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.1 WLP 1.271 Springfield w/Fire Point 2.35
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.3 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.72
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.4 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.72
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.4 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.72
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.4 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.91
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.47
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.7 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.22
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.7 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.9 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Red Dot 4.9 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.0 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.0 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.0 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.0 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.2 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.2 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.2 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.27
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.2 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.7 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.47
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.7 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.91
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.77
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.8 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.9 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.69
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 4.9 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 5.0 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 5.0 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 5.3 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 5.3 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 5.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.47
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" TiteGroup 5.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.59
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 3.6 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 3.6 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 3.8 WLP Colt Comp FG17080 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 3.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 3.8 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 3.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 3.8 WLP My .45 3.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 4.0 WLP Clark HeavyLong Slide w/Bo-Mar 3.63
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 4.0 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 4.0 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 4.4 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Trail Boss 4.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.75
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.46
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.2 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.2 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.03
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.3 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.53
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.3 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.41
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.3 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.3 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.6 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.16
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.7 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.69
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.7 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.7 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 6.7 300 1.260 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.44
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.0 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.2 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.78
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.2 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.91
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.03
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.7 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 4.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" True Blue 7.7 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 4.9 300 1.2570:1.2582 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.13
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.0 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.12
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.0 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.1 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 1.94
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.3 300 1.2613 1.255 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.63
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.3 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.41
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.50
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.4 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.41
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.5 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.97
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.5 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.03
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.6 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.6 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.7 300 1.259 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.31
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.7 300 1.259 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.38
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.9 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.69
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 5.9 WLP 1.270 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.25
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" Unique 6.0 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 3.7 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 3.7 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 4.06
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 3.7 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.56
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 4.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 3.28
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 4.1 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.88
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 4.1 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.00
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 4.1 WLP Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 2.19
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 4.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.09
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 4.4 300 Colt NM w/BEC 1x30mm 1.81
Precision 45-200-SWC 200 199 L-SWC "Black Bullet" WST 4.5 WLP Colt GC w/PDP5 2.00

The Precision swaged moly-koted 200gn L-SWC is the only .45 I have used in the last 5 years. I just got some Zero swaged 185gn L-SWCHP and 200gn L-SWC for testing. Haven't shoot any yet, but the 185gn "looks" really good--the HP means it has the same basic geometry as the 200gn, but 15gn lighter.

minderasr
03-04-2012, 08:26
Thank you gentlemen, for posting the PDF file. Much appreciated.

XDRoX
03-04-2012, 08:32
Still possible to find those manuals? Perhaps a digital (pdf) copy?

Disclaimer: Although I have loaded 124gr bullets with 5.0gr of WST and got very similar velocities to those listed in this data, I would not go much over 5.0gr. I certainly wouldn't load 124gr bullet with 5.4gr of WST. This is an old manual when data was not as conservative as it is today. The creators of this data actually expected the hand loader to work up loads and check for signs of pressure. Today's data seems to be idiot proof, pick a load and shoot it.

Also, contrary to some posts in this thread, I've had very good luck with WST in 9mm. I shoot it almost exclusively for light to medium loads and use WSF for medium to hot. Even my mouse fart WST loads run flawlessly through my carbine. I load them with Berry's plated bullets. They are clean, accurate, high volume, great metering, great smelling rounds.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc412/XDRoX619/loaddata.jpg

HexHead
03-04-2012, 08:50
http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=223470&stc=1&d=1330834429

Thanks for posting that. Looks like 231 might be the all around powder I'm looking for, instead of the TG and WSF I've been using. I'd like to just buy an 8 lb jug.

Would it have killed them to post some OAL data too?

freakshow10mm
03-04-2012, 09:02
Would it have killed them to post some OAL data too?
Winchester generally uses SAAMI max OAL for their data.

HexHead
03-04-2012, 09:06
Winchester generally uses SAAMI max OAL for their data.

Thank.

TX Archer
03-04-2012, 09:09
Disclaimer: Although I have loaded 124gr bullets with 5.0gr of WST and got very similar velocities to those listed in this data, I would not go much over 5.0gr. I certainly wouldn't load 124gr bullet with 5.4gr of WST. This is an old manual when data was not as conservative as it is today. The creators of this data actually expected the hand loader to work up loads and check for signs of pressure. Today's data seems to be idiot proof, pick a load and shoot it.

Thanks a lot for posting that. Having shot a few hundred rounds of 124gr at 5.0 WST (without chrono data), I'd be scared to push it to 5.4. I'm curious what 5.4gr would even look like in the case. That stuff has a lot of volume and 5.0 fills the case quite a bit.

I'm experimenting with some Precision Delta 124gr JHP bullets for a G19 and would love to hear anyone's experience with them and WST (i.e. OAL and charge).

XDRoX
03-04-2012, 09:28
Thanks for posting that. Looks like 231 might be the all around powder I'm looking for, instead of the TG and WSF I've been using. I'd like to just buy an 8 lb jug.

Better get your 231 before the election. If you know who wins it'll be very hard to find for a while.

231 is a great all around powder. I use it for 380.

These are my most recent pet loads:
231/HP38 for 380
WST or WSF for 9mm
Trail Boss for 38spl
2400 for 357mag

I think Trail Boss is one of the most amazing developments in powders. I just wish I could squeeze enough in a 9mm case to get my glocks to function :supergrin:

fredj338
03-04-2012, 09:29
Oddly, I have to agree with the posts above about WST being less accurate than most other powders in high pressure cartridges like 9MM and .40 S&W. I've always wondered a bit about it and considered the possibility it was just me. For whatever reason, the only pistol caliber I've found it "competitively accurate" with many other powders is in .45 ACP. By "competitively accurate", I mean that 10-shot group strings, rested & benched, are near the size achievable with other powders. Off-hand shooting just don't cut it when determining the potential of the load. In my experience, it's very good in .45, decent in .40 and for me, pathetic in 9MM. I have no explanation for my WST experiences, other powders faster or slower (but still near) group tighter and more consistently for me. I've always suspected that my results may be due to exclusively using jacketed and/or, plated bullets...I think WST really shines best with lead but that's just an opinion.
I get sim results as you in 9 & 40, why I don't favor WST in either but for really light loads, often w/ lead bullets. WSF is a better play IMO in either. In 45acp, on my best days, 1.5" groups @ 25yds is pretty routine w/ plated or cast in my best 1911. Yes, I can get that w/ BE or W231 even Clays, but WST is cleaner than BE or W231 & doesn't get wierd around the top end like Clays.

HexHead
03-04-2012, 10:12
Better get your 231 before the election. If you know who wins it'll be very hard to find for a while.



I already picked up 5000 small pistol primers.

XDRoX
03-04-2012, 10:35
I already picked up 5000 small pistol primers.

Also a very good idea. I think I have around 17k SPP. I haven't took a count in a while. I figure that will take me through the next election. I don't have enough 231 though, but like last time I can always make due with WST if I have to. I need to develop a 380 load with it.

fredj338
03-04-2012, 13:13
Also a very good idea. I think I have around 17k SPP. I haven't took a count in a while. I figure that will take me through the next election. I don't have enough 231 though, but like last time I can always make due with WST if I have to. I need to develop a 380 load with it.
In violation of fire code? We all have only 10K primers total, remember that.:supergrin:

ColoCG
03-04-2012, 15:04
Also a very good idea. I think I have around 17k SPP. I haven't took a count in a while. I figure that will take me through the next election. I don't have enough 231 though, but like last time I can always make due with WST if I have to. I need to develop a 380 load with it.

Here is what I worked up for the .380. 3.1gr. WST and the Berry's 100gr. HBRN with Rem. sp primer loaded to col of .970".

Shoots very good in Ruger LCP avg's about 850 to 870 fps with that load. Lately I have been just keeping it at 3gr.

XDRoX
03-04-2012, 15:20
In violation of fire code? We all have only 10K primers total, remember that.:supergrin:

Good news Fred, at least I think so. I was doing some reading on the limit laws the other day and this is all I could find.

Excerpt from the California Fire Code:

3306.4.1 Black powder and smokeless propellants. Propellants for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) of black powder or 20 pounds (9 kg) of smokeless powder shall be stored in original containers in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Smokeless powder in quantities exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) but not exceeding 50 pounds (23 kg) kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1 inch (25 mm) nominal thickness shall be allowed to be stored in occupancies limited to Group R-3. Quantities exceeding these amounts shall not be stored in any Group R occupancy.

3306.4.2 Small arms primers. No more than 10,000 small arms primers shall be stored in occupancies limited to Group R-3.

According to this we're OK having over the 10k primer limit because you and I are both zoned R-1.

There still appears to be limits on powder but they are resonable at least.

XDRoX
03-04-2012, 15:25
Here is what I worked up for the .380. 3.1gr. WST and the Berry's 100gr. HBRN with Rem. sp primer loaded to col of .970".

Shoots very good in Ruger LCP avg's about 850 to 870 fps with that load. Lately I have been just keeping it at 3gr.

Thanks Charlie. I believe right now I'm using 3.2gr of HP38. My only problem is that about once in 100 shots I get a failure to eject. I assume it's being caused by too light of a load. Or posssibly limp wristing:dunno:

I do know that my LCP is 100% reliable with factory ammo though, so I figure it may be my light loads which feel way lighter than factory ones.

fredj338
03-04-2012, 16:51
Good news Fred, at least I think so. I was doing some reading on the limit laws the other day and this is all I could find.



According to this we're OK having over the 10k primer limit because you and I are both zoned R-1.

There still appears to be limits on powder but they are resonable at least.

What primers & powder? I don't have any primers or powder, nor evil lead either. Nope, it's just Tofu & bottled water @ my house.:dunno:

Rinconjoe
04-05-2012, 12:36
so after Reading through this most recommend WSF over WST for 40 S&W ?



OK lets makes this simple 180 grain 40 S&W point of impact seems to be around 2to 2.5 inches lows with grouping approx. one inch by now three different shooters. at 15 yards example of one top shooter ability : One shoots competition and seems to be very good shooting inch groups shoot ,I seem him all way out to 35 yards he one of our local shooters .

The Glock best I can remember was bought in 2003 to 2006 the night sights was installed when I bought Glock 23 . Only markings I can find on the sights are as follows:
MH3 AF on sights.
So double question continue with 4.0 to 4.4 grains WST or switch powders to try to get faster velocity.
Or try to change sights; the local gun shop says leave sights.
It seems to me if shooting low. I need to correct this. Anyway just my thoughts.
? About WST heard the powder is very picky with temps and humidity, with high temps in summer and high humidity in summer should I be concern hear in middle NC.

fredj338
04-05-2012, 13:09
Shooting 2" low @ 35yds, I wouldn't change anything. Shooting 2" low @ 30ft, I might change to a lower front sight. All my Glocks shoot high, about 2" @ 50ft. No big deal for a defensive caliber gun IMO. If I need extreme precision, I wouldn't carry/shoot a Glock.

Rinconjoe
04-05-2012, 14:22
Shooting 2" low @ 35yds, I wouldn't change anything. Shooting 2" low @ 30ft, I might change to a lower front sight. All my Glocks shoot high, about 2" @ 50ft. No big deal for a defensive caliber gun IMO. If I need extreme precision, I wouldn't carry/shoot a Glock.

I didn't say I was shooting low at 45 yrs i said shooting low at 15 yards and been total of four different shooters all shooting low with on bench rest the 35 yrd was about a guys ability to shoot great . i probably forgot something again ;

fredj338
04-05-2012, 15:50
I didn't say I was shooting low at 45 yrs i said shooting low at 15 yards and been total of four different shooters all shooting low with on bench rest the 35 yrd was about a guys ability to shoot great . i probably forgot something again ;

Well, if everyone is shooting 2" low @ 50ft, it's the sights & I would not be really happy with that. So a taller rear or shorter front is in order. If you get a front w/o dots, you can file it to fit if it's too high.

Wash-ar15
04-05-2012, 20:38
I only have 1 powder in my stable these days ,and that's WST. I use it to load 9/40/45 .