12g 00 buck for HD... 2 3/4" vs 3"? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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sharpshooter
01-17-2012, 09:54
Why is 2 3/4" 00 buck more popular for HD? 15 pellets is better than 8 or 9, right? Almost double the pellets!

Is this the same argument as buying a .357 magnum and downloading to .38 special?

Buffering
01-17-2012, 11:38
To extend your argument to the logical conclusion, why not use 3.5" shells?

If your purpose is to fire a single shot from a stationary position then swing for the wall however in terms of the number of rounds you have available to you, movement of the gun itself, training and so on, the 2 3/4 has been proven to be very capable. In fact, the po-po use reduced recoil rounds because they do not see a marked decrease in performance. They, like you, could always use a high base load if necessary but it isn't.

Just go with 2 3/4 buck in 00 or #1. No worries, sleep like a baby.

sharpshooter
01-17-2012, 12:08
"The police" use what they are told to use. Often it's one desk jocky that makes a decision about weapons and what everyone else is allowed to use. Sometimes it's a well judged decision based on a committee's recommendation, sometimes it comes down to one man's personal preferance. The chief doesn't like Glocks? Sorry, try a S&W sonny! Sometimes it's a budgetary decision. Sometimes it's purely political.

I would not base my decisions on "what the police use".

Buffering
01-17-2012, 12:23
OK, use what you like however in this case you'd very hard pressed to find a more universally accept load in either civilian or police, FBI or whatever resource you choose, to top reduced recoil loads.

If you can find for me a source that says Fed FC is a horrible round then I'll study it earnestly but I doubt you will. If the police and other LEO sources are using FC because some committee said use it, they'd among the luckiest people around.

B Glover
01-17-2012, 12:30
In my opinion you should always give consideration to what your local LE departments carry in their weapons. The reasoning is not really for the criminal action that may or may not occur as a result of a shooting but more for the civil side that will more likely occur.

I can say without a doubt that my local department buys the best they can based on the budget and "politics" has nothing to do with it.

All that aside. 2 3/4 buck is more than sufficent for HD.

faawrenchbndr
01-17-2012, 13:07
I've always counted on 2 3/4 OO buckshot

Hedo1
01-17-2012, 13:14
I've never shot a man with buckshot but I've shot quite a few deer with various types over the years. We have to use buckshot in a certain area of my county.

2 3/4" OO buck full power will knock an animal down inside 30Y reliably.
3" OO buck will do the same out to about 40Y reliably.
3 1/2" OO (out of a full choke 30" Benelli) will pattern well out to about 50Y

This past season I patterned the Benelli with 3 1/2" OO loads, out of 18 pellets, 4 to 5 were hitting the vital zone at 50Y. The 3" was doing about the same. The 2 3/4 was getting one or two in the zone. I shot a doe at 55Y with a 3 1/2" round this year and at least 4 pellets went into the chest, one in the neck and one in the hind quarters.

So to answer your question imo. If you are expecting to take long shots, over 30Y with your shotgun go with a bigger more powerful load. For most HD situations 2 3/4" rounds will do the job. Personally I use 2 3/4" OO buck and keep my shotgun cruiser ready with a few slugs in the side saddle just in case.

Buffering
01-17-2012, 13:17
I practice civil litigation and I or any decent attorney, could, without breaking a sweat, turn the use of that 3" shell into an inference of compensability. No problem at all. And the funny thing is, I don't need the shooter to do it.

There are good reasons to use what the po-po use.

fuzzy03cls
01-17-2012, 13:30
I use Federal LE 13200 or Winchester RA1200 as my SD loads out of my 18.5" 590A1.
Both 9 pellet low recoil.

dp2002813
01-17-2012, 15:30
I use 2 3/4 shells in either #4 or 00 buck. Mostly because the scattergun is older than me and will not accept 3 or 3 1/2" shells. Most of my rooms here are not more than 20' away, so the difference is not worth the expense.

I would consider the improved effects of using 3" over 2 3/4" with the increase in recoil, flash & sound. It is the same argument I thought of when choosing whether to use a .357mag or a .45 or home defense. The 00 buck is my first choice and the .45 is a back-up or a way to fight my way back to the scattergun. I chose the .45 because the flash and noise of a .357mag is considerable and in a darkened home at night the flash and noise, rated ~160 decibels, could be disorientating. A shotgun is ~154 decibels. A stun grenade is 170-180 decibels. Pain threshold is 130.

It doesn't sound like much in print, but it will to our ears. I have, stupidly, shot a 2 3/4 shell with 7 1/2 shot without ear protection, once. The sound bounced off a shed behind me and rang my one ear good. Also, my buddy in a streak of mischievousness, replaced the .38spl rounds in his .357mag I was shooting with .357mag hunting rounds. I was wearing those foam ear plugs, but it wasn't enough! I found myself checking if I HAD any protection at all.

JMHO

ScrappyDoo
01-17-2012, 15:39
I've always counted on 2 3/4 OO buckshot

Absolutely right and as simple as that.

And without getting into a fight over 00 vs 000 va 0000 vs slugs vs birdshot for HD - let me say this UN equivocally: there is NO REASON to use bigger than 2 3/4" shells for HD. I mean unless you get a phone call that the person says Hey beeeyatch I'm coming to invade your home right now bring it on!!!! And you're literally gearing up for combat right then and there to preplanned fight with your gun to shoot people close range from your defended stationary position ( good luck with that btw) the kick of the 3" overrides any " additional benefit " if there actually is , of the extra few pellets that make the 3" shell. And 3 1/2" are really not combat loads at all are they ? I thought they were for turkey hunting at 40 yds , please correct me cause I don't hunt but I thought that was the general idea.

2 3/4" 00 Buck is fhe absolutely ideal load for HD - lethality and controllability. Yin and yang coming together to provide protection to you. I know other loads have specific merits and I wouldn't want to chuck my gun in the garbage cause I o ly had various different buck loads or whatever avail ST the time , but otherwise given preparation time , plain jane buckshot wins the war.

WoodenPlank
01-17-2012, 16:10
Why is 2 3/4" 00 buck more popular for HD? 15 pellets is better than 8 or 9, right? Almost double the pellets!

Is this the same argument as buying a .357 magnum and downloading to .38 special?

Also greater recoil(making it harder for smaller/weaker family members to use, and slower follow-up), lessened magazine capacity, and the possible civil liabilities mentioned in other posts.

In my opinion you should always give consideration to what your local LE departments carry in their weapons. The reasoning is not really for the criminal action that may or may not occur as a result of a shooting but more for the civil side that will more likely occur.

Exactly.

I've never shot a man with buckshot but I've shot quite a few deer with various types over the years. We have to use buckshot in a certain area of my county.

2 3/4" OO buck full power will knock an animal down inside 30Y reliably.
3" OO buck will do the same out to about 40Y reliably.
3 1/2" OO (out of a full choke 30" Benelli) will pattern well out to about 50Y

This past season I patterned the Benelli with 3 1/2" OO loads, out of 18 pellets, 4 to 5 were hitting the vital zone at 50Y. The 3" was doing about the same. The 2 3/4 was getting one or two in the zone. I shot a doe at 55Y with a 3 1/2" round this year and at least 4 pellets went into the chest, one in the neck and one in the hind quarters.

So to answer your question imo. If you are expecting to take long shots, over 30Y with your shotgun go with a bigger more powerful load. For most HD situations 2 3/4" rounds will do the job. Personally I use 2 3/4" OO buck and keep my shotgun cruiser ready with a few slugs in the side saddle just in case.

If I need to take a shot past 25y, then I either brought the wrong weapon (shoulda brought the carbine) or I need to do a quick change to slugs.

I load LE low recoil, buffered, 8 pellet 00 in my 590. If I had a reliable source of good #1 loads, I would likely switch. Until then, though, I'll keep 00 in the tube and side saddle, with slugs in the SpeedFeed stock.

David_Ely
01-17-2012, 16:20
I just fired off 4 rounds of Winchester 3" 15 pellet buck today at the range and the recoil was excessive and a quick follow up shot near impossible. I'll save the 3" and 3.5" Buck for the 4 legged foe.

ScrappyDoo
01-17-2012, 18:01
Exactly right David ely , well said. 3" rounds are for specific uses and the 3.5" rounds are for extremely specific hunting applications. Tactical use of a shotgun in combat or home defense etc is not hunting.

Big Bird
01-17-2012, 20:02
2 3/4" 00 Buck is the Gold Standard of manstopping cartridges. As someone just posted 3" and 3.5" magnum shells generate excessive recoil and slow you shot to shot recovery for very little gain in effectiveness.

If you need Buckshot out to 40 yards consider Federal's offerings with the Flite Control Wad technology. The FCW holds very tight patterns and with my shotguns I can usually keep three pellets on a standard man size target out to 40 yards.

Aceman
01-17-2012, 21:27
2 3/4 00 Low recoil:

#1 Low recoil = faster back on target
#2 Low recoil at indoor social distance is just as nasty.
#3 2 3/4 = more rounds in the tube

If you have a better reason to use something else indoors, I'd like to hear it. Not saying this is perfect...but I don't think you can come up with something practically better, or legit reasons for it. We can argue a shot size here or there, but overall...this does the job IMO best overall.

Just saying as you stray from this round, time back on target goes up, damage is not significantly increased, and round count goes down. The BG doesn't get more likely to be dead.

VinnieD
01-18-2012, 03:29
I too once thought that 3" shells might be good for HD. I was sadly mistaken. The recoil screwed up my aim by increasing the muzzle rise, made followup shots harder, and frankly HURT. I am not one to complain about recoil, I don't shoot reduced recoil rounds, but fire off an entire box of those 3" shells and you'll find yourself with bruises on your shoulder even with a recoil pad.

2 3/4 shells are really preferable for fighting two legged foes due to greater usability. 3" and upward are for hunting. If you insist on firing larger rounds, you'd be well advised at least not to fire them out of anything too light. You'd best have a heavy barrel and wood furniture to soak up some of that recoil because the charge in those magnum shells tends to want to launch lighter shotguns as hard backward as it does to send the projectiles forward.

sharpshooter
01-18-2012, 15:34
The recoil argument is understandable. The civil liability argument is laughable. Else why don't you use a single shot 12g for HD if you're worried about liability? Lawyers will argue ANYTHING in the courtroom for the right price, which is why they're hated. A 3" shell is no different than any other 3" hunting round, that argument is shot down easily.

WoodenPlank
01-18-2012, 15:42
The recoil argument is understandable. The civil liability argument is laughable. Else why don't you use a single shot 12g for HD if you're worried about liability? Lawyers will argue ANYTHING in the courtroom for the right price, which is why they're hated. A 3" shell is no different than any other 3" hunting round, that argument is shot down easily.

You're right, assuming you or your defense attorney had the ability and knowledge needed to make that argument in court. That doesn't always happen.

Edit to add: Anything you use in a SD/HD role should be something you can articulate WHY you used it. Not just your weapon of choice, but even type of ammo, capacity of magazine, caliber, etc.

sharpshooter
01-18-2012, 17:42
Balogna. That's old internet mythology. Show me a case where that actually played a role in anything...

If you used the same model firearm with the same duty ammo as your local PD, a lawyer could just as easily argue that you're a gun nut rouge wanna-be cop looking for a chance to shoot somebody.

In a "what if" world, lawyers could argue anything. That is not a valid reason to use or not use a specific reasonable type of ammunition. If you use "Extreme Murder" brand or "Zombie" brand ammo then you might want to consider switching brands, but it won't matter because a good shoot is a good shoot no matter what color or size your ammo is.

Buffering
01-18-2012, 18:18
Use whatever you want however I guarantee that in a deposition or other court proceeding you will quickly and easily be flipped upside down. In a criminal case the standard of proof is one thing but in a civil case it's much lower.

An inference of recklessness or negligence is so much easier to prove.

Why open yourself up to that possibility? What's the upside to you doing that? The downside is costing you or your insurance company lots of money.

collim1
01-18-2012, 19:33
Only reason I would choose a magnum buck load is for a deer drive.

If you can handle the recoil it certainly wont hurt, but I find it brain jarring.

Is 15 pellets of OO buck better than 9? The answer is yes, but like everything else firearms related it is a trade off.

Also, some shotguns will hold 1 less round in the mag tube with 3" loads.

Aceman
01-18-2012, 19:36
Listen, you guys are going on like the BG is actually there to testify or something...

Aceman
01-18-2012, 19:37
Balogna. That's old internet mythology. Show me a case where that actually played a role in anything...


yep.

Not saying it COULDN'T happen. But show me at least THREE instances where it did.

TrptProf
01-18-2012, 22:53
assuming you're on target:

9 pellets in the BG = game over, with better/faster follow-ups + more ammo.

15 pellets in the BG = game over, with extra recoil and less ammo.

easy choice...

WoodenPlank
01-18-2012, 23:23
assuming you're on target:

9 pellets in the BG = game over, with better/faster follow-ups + more ammo.

15 pellets in the BG = game over, with extra recoil and less ammo.

easy choice...

One shot is not always "game over", however. There have been cases of people taking multiple solid hits from 00 buck and continuing to fight. That's why you want to be able to make faster follow-up shots.

TrptProf
01-18-2012, 23:26
One shot is not always "game over", however. There have been cases of people taking multiple solid hits from 00 buck and continuing to fight. That's why you want to be able to make faster follow-up shots.

sure.

WoodenPlank
01-19-2012, 01:24
sure.

Sorry for my confusion, but was that meant to be agreement or doubt?

sharpshooter
01-19-2012, 01:49
One shot is not always "game over", however. There have been cases of people taking multiple solid hits from 00 buck and continuing to fight. That's why you want to be able to make faster follow-up shots.
So you wouldn't use 3" shells in case a lawyer tries to say you use excessively lethal ammo. But you also say you want the higher capacity of 2.75" shells because you might need a follow up shot since there have been cases of bad guys requiring multiple hits? You wouldn't dare shoot a bad guy once with a 3" shell, but you have no problem shooting him twice with a 2.75" shell?!

Your logic is confused.

WoodenPlank
01-19-2012, 01:53
So you wouldn't use 3" shells in case a lawyer tries to say you use excessively lethal ammo. But you also say you want the higher capacity of 2.75" shells because you might need a follow up shot since there have been cases of bad guys requiring multiple hits? You wouldn't dare shoot a bad guy once with a 3" shell, but you have no problem shooting him twice with a 2.75" shell?!

Your logic is confused.

I don't use 3" because the recoil is excessive for the minor increase in lethality.

Yes, an unscrupulous DA can use ANY decision you make as part of self defense against you, if they have some motivation to do so. They could just as easily try to give me a hard time about my "law enforcement" marked low recoil 00. However, I can articulate WHY I chose that ammo. If you choose 3" shot for your own weapon, I would suggest you be capable of doing the same.

As for shooting them multiple times - if I have to use a firearm in self defense, I will continue to engage the hostile target until the threat has been stopped - whether that means 1 shot or 8.

fasteddie565
01-19-2012, 04:45
2 3/4" 00 Buck is the Gold Standard of manstopping cartridges. As someone just posted 3" and 3.5" magnum shells generate excessive recoil and slow you shot to shot recovery for very little gain in effectiveness.

If you need Buckshot out to 40 yards consider Federal's offerings with the Flite Control Wad technology. The FCW holds very tight patterns and with my shotguns I can usually keep three pellets on a standard man size target out to 40 yards.

Daddy likes and shoots the FCW federals as well. Choke selection will also make a difference in patterning. All 2 3/4, low recoil for the 870. Various folks have covered the tactical, legal and financial sides of this argument with great information. No need for anything other than the 2 3/4 buck. Now, which number buck is a whole n'other thread.....:wow:

fasteddie565
01-19-2012, 04:46
I don't use 3" because the recoil is excessive for the minor increase in lethality.

Yes, an unscrupulous DA can use ANY decision you make as part of self defense against you, if they have some motivation to do so. They could just as easily try to give me a hard time about my "law enforcement" marked low recoil 00. However, I can articulate WHY I chose that ammo. If you choose 3" shot for your own weapon, I would suggest you be capable of doing the same.

As for shooting them multiple times - if I have to use a firearm in self defense, I will continue to engage the hostile target until the threat has been stopped - whether that means 1 shot or 8.

"One Mag, One Kill"

SGM (R) Kyle Lamb

fasteddie565
01-19-2012, 04:51
So you wouldn't use 3" shells in case a lawyer tries to say you use excessively lethal ammo. But you also say you want the higher capacity of 2.75" shells because you might need a follow up shot since there have been cases of bad guys requiring multiple hits? You wouldn't dare shoot a bad guy once with a 3" shell, but you have no problem shooting him twice with a 2.75" shell?!

Your logic is confused.

No, its the logic of the legal system that bans an assault rifle that has a bayonet lug or pistol grip.

My financial and tactical decisions are made on experience, the legal decisions are made based on lawyers that try (sp) these types of cases, which has little to do with logic. (No offense Counselors)

frankr
01-23-2012, 04:23
The key words in your question is Home Defense. If you are inside your home with a shotgun and you are fearing for your life or your families life then think about the maximum distance you would have to fire your shotgun, also what type of choke is in your barrel. Full, modified, cylinder bore? My home defense shotgun has an 18 Ĺ cylinder bore barrel and at 15 to 20 feet which is the maximum distance in my home my pattern with 2 ĺ, 00 buckshot is about the size of a softball. Whatís more important to me is to be sure Iím aiming my shotgun for a good hit. I canít think of anything more devastating than a tight group of 9 pellets of 2 ĺ buckshot hitting center mass at 15 feet.

Timkid
01-26-2012, 09:50
OK, use what you like however in this case you'd very hard pressed to find a more universally accept load in either civilian or police, FBI or whatever resource you choose, to top reduced recoil loads.

If you can find for me a source that says Fed FC is a horrible round then I'll study it earnestly but I doubt you will. If the police and other LEO sources are using FC because some committee said use it, they'd among the luckiest people around.

What does the FC stand for I went on Federals web site. To check out round found a PD132 but not anything with FC.

WoodenPlank
01-26-2012, 13:50
What does the FC stand for I went on Federals web site. To check out round found a PD132 but not anything with FC.

Flite-Control wadding, I believe.

collim1
01-26-2012, 14:03
What does the FC stand for I went on Federals web site. To check out round found a PD132 but not anything with FC.

Flite control wad. Its good stuff I shot 30rds of it out of my 870 cyl bore shotgun yesterday at various distances. At 25yds it was putting 9 pellets in a 6-7in pattern.

It is great for a patrol shotgun as it extends the effective range of OObuck 15-20yds. Inside the house its still fine, but not necessary.

I use regular Federal 27 pellet #4 buck in my HD shotgun.

Buffering
01-26-2012, 14:03
WoodenPlank is correct. FC is the common abbreviation for the Federal Flite Contol wad. The wad is used via license and Hornady and I believe Speer also have a similar license however Federal is the most used name when discussing FC.

Aceman
01-26-2012, 18:25
3 / 3.5 is for knocking ducks and geese into the water from 30,000 feet.

I was actually at the range patterning the other day with some Win-lite 00 and some regular Winchester and Remington 2 3/4 00

At ~25 feet on multiple shots, I put it all in the torso, except for 1 stray pellet. (maybe 12 " pattern, 18.5")

At about 10 ft I put it all in the head.

Buffering
01-26-2012, 18:44
At ~25 feet on multiple shots, I put it all in the torso, except for 1 stray pellet. (maybe 12 " pattern, 18.5")

At about 10 ft I put it all in the head.

What are you, some sort of porn star?

:tongueout:

ScrappyDoo
01-27-2012, 22:53
Again Aceman is really right. 3.5" has really absolutely no business being used for any other purpose that hunting , and that is - whatever specific use each shell brand/type/style was designed for. I'm no hunter and if I was it would be shotgunning a deer ( Jersey only allows deer to be shot with a shotgun ; we cant use rifle in NJ almost bar none ). I THINK either the initial use or the most prominent use of 3.5" shells is for 40 yd turkey hunting , ideally with a turkey configured gun ( 24" hi VIS fiber optic sighted barrel wit a nice pistol grip stock ) and 3.5" is also used for " fowling" ie duck hunting and other assorted bird blasting. And I understand it : youve got a specific plan in mind - to hunt a specific type of animal with specific shells that maximize the specific effect you want and need: the most pellets at the maximum range etc and you're not necessarily putting like a 100 rd box of shells through your gun.

Even 3" " magnum " shells are really designed for hunting and not really necessary and I truly believe Not generating an advantage/possibly putting you at a disadvantage. The recoil inrease is substantial , causing more pain, flinch ,muzzle climb if not outright losing of the target after the first shot altogether etc. And for what , a few more pellets of 00 Buck for HD? when a standard cheap regular 2 3/4 already is packing NINE PELLETs of what is it, .32 ACP-like rounds ?

I think I have one box of five 3" shells - some sort of Federal 00 Buck premium magnum combat shells. And I doubt ill ever really use them unless I REALLY HAVE A GRRST REASON to.

Other than that - its been said so many times by so many people - IT'S SO EASY - 2 3/4" 00 buck - its so easy to make the smart choice !

sharpshooter
01-28-2012, 00:11
youve got a specific plan in mind - to hunt a specific type of animal with specific shells that maximize the specific effect you want and need: the most pellets at the maximum range etc and you're not necessarily putting like a 100 rd box of shells through your gun. Sounds like a perfect argument FOR using 3" 00 buck, for a specific target to maximize effect...

ScrappyDoo
01-28-2012, 00:41
Sounds like a perfect argument FOR using 3" 00 buck, for a specific target to maximize effect...

Which is basically exactly what i said , the difference being that birdies dont shoot back ......

So if the enormous recoil ruins your shot or the pain gets to you or yu miss and now csnt get back on target quickly enough you die.

Dead As A DOORNAIL csuse u didn't stick to 2 3/4" buck.

Buffering
01-28-2012, 00:57
This isn't all that hard so I don't know why we're getting ready to start a 3d page.

2 3/4" or 70mm for those you on the metric system, are the preferred load for HD. It provides appropriate force while allowing repeated shots as necessary. For those think that one shot from 3" or 3 1/2" shell is enough, why not sell your current gun and go with a single shot. See, there isn't an expert alive who follows that train of thinking because it isn't founded in reality.

If you really want the extra scoot, just go with the stoutest 2 3/4" buckshot rounds you can find. There really is no need to wear the pooka shell necklace and argue for using the longer shells.