softest 9mm loads [Archive] - Glock Talk

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sjones
04-28-2010, 18:09
I have win 231 and auto comp.Whats the softest shooting load just for target shooting?Thanks. sj

BBJones
04-28-2010, 18:24
I am a reloading nub, so take the following with a grain of salt.

Check out Brian Enos forums. There are tons of discussions about this. The most common theme is VV N320, Titegroup, Solo1000 behind a 147gr bullet (usually lead or coated lead). Basically a pretty fast burning powder behind a relatively heavy bullet will give the lightest felt recoil.

I am working up a load:
124FMJ
3.8-4.0gr of Titegroup (seeing what will make 130-133pf out of a G17 and provide decent accuracy)
1.130 OAL
mixed brass
Wolf/Rem primers

I don't think either of the powders you have will be considered soft shooters in 9mm. I have personally never loaded with either (again reloading nub here).

AltiDude
04-28-2010, 18:28
Perhaps mink grips instead of rosewood. I mean I'm just saying....

cyberiad
04-28-2010, 18:31
I agree with BB. In terms of "light loads" in any common caliber (9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP) there probably is not a combination using commonly available components that has not been used by someone who posts on Enos' forum. This forum is good but there is a ton of info over there. I like and use Solo 1000 and I likely would not have heard of it if I didn't read Brian's site (literally everyone I asked uses Titegroup).

GioaJack
04-28-2010, 18:36
There seems to be a bit of confusion among some of the newer loaders concerning recoil, (or perceived recoil if you prefer).

Given like velocities out of the same, or similar gun, a heavier bullet will produce more recoil.

Jack

njl
04-28-2010, 18:42
I've got Clays that I bought for .45acp. I may try some at some point with the 124gr jacketed 9mm bullets I have and see how it compares to Universal.

jmorris
04-28-2010, 18:49
For IDPA and USPSA I have found nothing with less percieved redcoil than 3.1 of VVn310 and a 147 gr berry's at 1.160" OAL, that meets PF.

shotgunred
04-28-2010, 19:03
I find that using ear plugs instead of lead makes for softer loads.:cool:

GioaJack
04-28-2010, 19:20
For IDPA and USPSA I have found nothing with less percieved redcoil than 3.1 of VVn310 and a 147 gr berry's at 1.160" OAL, that meets PF.


J...:

PF adds another variable with bullet weight being half of the equation, the other half of course being velocity.

Although I'm not a gamer, would love to be but my cane gets in the way, if I understand the concept of PF correctly you'd have to increase the velocity of the lighter bullet to equal the PF of the heavier bullet. Again, another variable.

It's simply a law of physics, a heavier projectile propelled forward at the same velocity as a lighter projectile will produce more rearward force, (recoil).

Blame Newton, he's the one who wrote the law. :supergrin:

Jack

cysoto
04-28-2010, 19:40
I've got Clays that I bought for .45acp. I may try some at some point with the 124gr jacketed 9mm bullets I have and see how it compares to Universal.
You can certainly achieve a light 9mm load using Clays but this powder nowhere near as accurate for 9mm loads as it is for .45ACP

Colorado4Wheel
04-28-2010, 19:48
I have win 231 and auto comp.Whats the softest shooting load just for target shooting?Thanks. sj

Use the 231 for lighter loads.

sjones
04-28-2010, 20:02
So far the lowest load I've found is 4.4 gr with rainier 124 gr truncated tmj.Is there any lower that will still function in a g19? Thanks

Jayman
04-28-2010, 20:05
You can certainly achieve a light 9mm load using Clays but this powder nowhere near as accurate for 9mm loads as it is for .45ACP

Yep, Clays behind 124s didn't group for me so much as "pattern." Didn't matter how hot or light, anything across the listed load was horrid in terms of accuracy. Titegroup is much more accurate and still gives nice light recoil characteristics.

robin303
04-28-2010, 20:11
I have tested a lb of AutoComp and this is the best I found in 9mm, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Berry</st1:place></st1:State>’s and my G19 & 17 with a OAL of 1.135.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
115 5.2<o:p></o:p>
124 4.8<o:p></o:p>
147 3.8

srd
04-29-2010, 06:03
Hey Jack try 2.7 Solo 1000 under a 160 grain at 1.135. Meets minor PF and shoots like a .22 [ if you have a slow burning jug try 2.8 ] . Two of my 9's love it and its accurate.

mteagle1
04-29-2010, 08:36
J...:

PF adds another variable with bullet weight being half of the equation, the other half of course being velocity.

Although I'm not a gamer, would love to be but my cane gets in the way, if I understand the concept of PF correctly you'd have to increase the velocity of the lighter bullet to equal the PF of the heavier bullet. Again, another variable.

It's simply a law of physics, a heavier projectile propelled forward at the same velocity as a lighter projectile will produce more rearward force, (recoil).

Blame Newton, he's the one who wrote the law. :supergrin:

Jack

Power Factor is bullet times velocity divided by 1000. So using a heavier bullet means you can reduce the velocity, i.e. amount of powder. Using a faster powder with a heavier bullet means consuming most of the powder in the barrel reducing the rocket effect as the bullet leaves the barrel. Of course all this goes out the window for an Open gun because it needs lots of gas volume to work the comp so we use very light bullets with very slow powders and create major fire balls at the end of the muzzle.

Jim Watson
04-29-2010, 08:51
There is no need to buy another can of powder to shoot somebody else's pet load.
Get some heavy bullets, 147 is better than 125 is better than 115.
Load with the handbook starting load of W231, usually 90% of the maximum.


Go shooting.

When you are out of 231, go to the starting load of Auto Comp.
When that is gone, buy some more 231 or HP38 which is now the same thing.

GioaJack
04-29-2010, 09:15
Power Factor is bullet times velocity divided by 1000. So using a heavier bullet means you can reduce the velocity, i.e. amount of powder. Using a faster powder with a heavier bullet means consuming most of the powder in the barrel reducing the rocket effect as the bullet leaves the barrel. Of course all this goes out the window for an Open gun because it needs lots of gas volume to work the comp so we use very light bullets with very slow powders and create major fire balls at the end of the muzzle.


See, this is another reason I don't shoot gaming events... not only not able to move fast or stand long enough to shoot the stages, I'm not smart enough to figure out or really understand all these power factors.

Kinda wish these events had been around when I was able to do them... looks like great fun. Shot SASS for a couple of years and did pretty good in the duelist class, (no one knew how to shoot one handed) but broke too many bones moving around in the stages. Got to the point where I couldn't tell if I was hearing gunshots or my bones snapping.

I go out and watch Little Stevie and the other guys shoot every once in a while... I'll get my excitement through them... I had my turn, lots of them. :supergrin:

Jack

DanaT
04-29-2010, 09:22
J...:

PF adds another variable with bullet weight being half of the equation, the other half of course being velocity.

Although I'm not a gamer, would love to be but my cane gets in the way, if I understand the concept of PF correctly you'd have to increase the velocity of the lighter bullet to equal the PF of the heavier bullet. Again, another variable.

It's simply a law of physics, a heavier projectile propelled forward at the same velocity as a lighter projectile will produce more rearward force, (recoil).

Blame Newton, he's the one who wrote the law. :supergrin:

Jack

The issue is that PF (momentum) and energy is not the same and the "games" were written to favor momentum which means the 45ACP.

To get the same momentum from a light bullet, the lighter bullet must travel much faster and drive energy up.

Momentum goes up linearly with bullet weight and velocity whereas energy goes up by the square of velocity.

To show a "real" example of this:
I have a 124gr 9mm load that makes a 126PF from my G34. The mean velocity is 1011dt/sec with a muzzle energy of 281ft-lbs.

To get the same 126PF with a 230gr 45ACP, the bullet only needs to be going 547ft/sec. This round would only make 153ft-lbs of energy.

Some of the recoil questions that are asked is because someone at sometime decided that the 45ACP was better than the 9mm for "practical" use. Therefore the rules were written to favor the 45ACP. You can see this in many ways. When the AWB was in place and HiCaps were not allowed, the rules for IDPA were written to only allow 10 round magazines (which BTW has never changed) for SSP. These rules favor the larger calibers and minimize one of the 9mm biggest advantages over larger rounds: magazine capacity. However, look at the Custom Defensive Pistol rules: MUST be 45ACP (why no 10mm??), be loaded with no more than an 8 round magazine. It specifically says "High capacity pistols can be used as long as the pistol meets ALL division criteria". CDP really means "Custom 1911 Pistol". At the time the rules were written there were plenty (i.e. Glock 21, HK USP) 45ACP pistols available with 10 round magazines but one of the advantages (a few extra rounds) was written away in the rules even though the magazines were readily available. Do you think any of this had to do with the IDPA founder being Bill Wilson and wanting to have a special class where only custom 1911s are competative via rules had anything to do with these decisions? Is it possible that there was a special class made so that Wilson Combat could sell more pistols that had a special class?

So, it al comes down to, these are games and have not a lot to do with reality if you want to "win". If you want to have fun and go shooting on an interesting course of fire, well, either game it up and use reduced power loads or use full power loads and use the games as "training". I think the key is to have fun with whatever route you decide to take. And unless you are REALLY REALLY serious, the only competition is yourself. As long as you keep in improving, then you are a winner even if others continueally beat you.

BTW Jack....maybe if the cane gets in the way, you could just beat the target into submission with it and still score points???

-Dana

GioaJack
04-29-2010, 09:36
Dana:

You've made my point better than I could ever do. If I had to learn and understand all those rules I's give up and bounce rocks off the steel.

Think I'm gonna stick with black powder for my competition fix, the rules are short and simple. Load from a powder measure, don't blow down the barrel, stand on your hind legs and try not to wound anyone. Even I can understand those.

BTW... I can hit the gaming targets, hell, I can hit 'em at a hundred yards, that's not the problem, it's the loss of daylight while I hobble from one shooting position to another that tests people's patience. They time me with a sun dial. :supergrin:

Jack

DanaT
04-29-2010, 11:55
Dana:

You've made my point better than I could ever do. If I had to learn and understand all those rules I's give up and bounce rocks off the steel.



Sorry. Pg 37 paragraph 5 specifically forbids the use of rock more than 1/4 inch in diameter.

-Dana

cyberiad
04-29-2010, 14:57
The rules of IDPA are actually simple. There are only 2 or 3 that really matter, all the rest is fluff or can be looked up as required (eg, what the legal modifications ar in ESP, etc).

I doubt that CDP exists to sell more Wilson Combat handguns. Today, the number of actual Wilsons at matches is very small indeed. Based on recent results, if I wanted to win CDP I would buy an M&P or XD. As I understand it, since IDPA started during the ban the capacity was limited to 10 rounds (not to favor the 1911) and remains this way because some states still do not allow "high capacity" magazines.

I SO at my local club and I meet a lot of new shooters. Most show up with a Glock, M&P or XD and they're fine. The majority don't even know who Bill Wilson is. In fact, I know at least 3 shooters who initially started with 1911s in the last year and switched to Glocks.

Sorry to drift off topic.

DanaT
04-29-2010, 15:08
The rules of IDPA are actually simple. There are only 2 or 3 that really matter, all the rest is fluff or can be looked up as required (eg, what the legal modifications ar in ESP, etc).

I doubt that CDP exists to sell more Wilson Combat handguns. Today, the number of actual Wilsons at matches is very small indeed. Based on recent results, if I wanted to win CDP I would buy an M&P or XD. As I understand it, since IDPA started during the ban the capacity was limited to 10 rounds (not to favor the 1911) and remains this way because some states still do not allow "high capacity" magazines.

I SO at my local club and I meet a lot of new shooters. Most show up with a Glock, M&P or XD and they're fine. The majority don't even know who Bill Wilson is. In fact, I know at least 3 shooters who initially started with 1911s in the last year and switched to Glocks.

Sorry to drift off topic.

I agree with you on most of what you said, but look at the Wilson Combat in historical perspective, when IDPA was started, Wilson had lost to gain from a CDP category just as the high capacity ban on magazines was a result of the times.

If you really think about the fairness issue of the states that dont allow more than 10 round magazines it is CA, MA, HI, and NY. I say give them a "retarded state" class and let the rest of us move on....think about it. For NY and MA, the people can be smart and move to CT if they want to own guns. HI. Wel, they are in the middle of the ocean and I doubt a big participant in national IDPA matches. CA...well...we cant say enough about CA...

-Dana

ssgrock3
04-29-2010, 15:18
3.5gr unique under a lead 147gr semi-truncated lead slug, winchester spp, range brass. Will not cycle all pistols...I am told, but has cycled all glocks I have shot it in. oops, forgot lone wolf barrel.. brass falls at your feet. Nice and soft, fun to shoot in my glock 26.

cyberiad
04-29-2010, 15:59
Hey Jack try 2.7 Solo 1000 under a 160 grain at 1.135. Meets minor PF and shoots like a .22 [ if you have a slow burning jug try 2.8 ] . Two of my 9's love it and its accurate.

Is that a 160 grain 9mm bullet? Lead?

srd
04-29-2010, 18:54
The 160 grain happens to be lead. [ the bullet works] As soon as i find a mold for it i will be making my own.

ssgrock3
04-29-2010, 20:11
I was a little nervous the first time I ran 147's because they are set much deeper in the case...that 160gr will be deeeeeep seated. Is there load data or is a make your own?

walstien
05-02-2010, 13:33
124 Plated
3.6 TG
Win SPP
1.10 OAL
Sunny - 65 degress
Velocity avg 1040 from a 5" Springfield 9mm 1911
PF 128905

BBJones
05-02-2010, 16:42
124 Plated
3.6 TG
Win SPP
1.10 OAL
Sunny - 65 degress
Velocity avg 1040 from a 5" Springfield 9mm 1911
PF 128905


That is pretty good velocity with just 3.6 of TG. Most load about 3.9-4.0 to make 130PF out of G17/G34's.